A scurrilous thought for Greece and China

For whom might it make sense to help Greece, as impasse with Germany hardens and Greece approaches default?  And what sort of offer of help would make sense for Greece?

Europe and in particular the Germans have painted themselves into a Teutonic corner. It will make no more nor less sense for Germany to blink in two or three weeks time than now. Of course as the reality nears, of their own banks and those in France having to come clean before their own populace about the bad loans they made to Greece, they may lose their nerve. I strongly recommend Mr Tsipras reiterate his determination to set up a Debt Commission. The prospect of Europe’s and America’s banks having all their grubby and quite possibly fraudulent dealings with Greece’s oligarch families when they were in government, paraded in public will leave many powerful people wondering if  an unfortunate helicopter accident couldn’t be arranged by some friendly…. no, no no. What am I saying! Or perhaps a fire inside a sealed room? Only joking.

So who?

I think it would make perfect political sense for Russia, China, India and Iran as a loose group to offer to help Greece in its hour of need. Why them?  Well they have already formed a loose, though not so very loose, group who will accept each other’s currencies in international deals, who already use the Yuan as a Settlement Currency (a currency considered safe and stable enough for major deals, like oil and gas, to be conducted in it) and have been accumulating gold so that they could, in the event of a major currency incident, mention that their currency has large gold reserves behind it.

Russia or China as the lead country, could tell the Greeks that whatever their new currency might be, it could become part of a rival currency group. The Euro nations are, I think, assuming Greece will run its currency in parallel with the Euro perhaps still using the euro for all its international dealings.

The Russia/China group would score a major coup if Greece even appeared to consider such an offer. For them to be able to reach inside the EU’s back garden and offer the hand of help to Greece and the Greek people, when Greece’s neighbors ‘refused’ would be a major psychological and diplomatic event.

The offer would not entail China taking on any of Greece’s debts. It would leave them untouched as business between Greece and its ‘old’ friends. So the offer would cost China et all nothing.

I think Greece could potentially get a lot from such an offer. They, if they were bold, would serve notice to Europe that they were not Europe’s cur. They would not be tied to the Euro as its poorest and most powerless relation. Instead they would be poor but not powerless. They would have new diplomatic friends. Instead of being ‘outside’ the Euro they’d be inside something else.

Would this alienate them from Europe? No I don’t think it would. No more than they will be anyway. Diplomatically it could actually cast Europe and Germany in particular as the ‘false friends’ in contrast to Greece’s ‘new friends’.

Greece would also be wise, in my opinion, to make sure their new friends offered them the chance to not only use the yuan as its Settlement Currency, but also allow it to use Hong Kong to do all its sovereign business. This would be very attractive to the Chinese as I think they would like to see Hong Kong start to rival NY as the centre for sovereign settlement.  HSBC would be the obvious bank to handle it. But one of the large Swiss banks could also. In partnership with a mainland bank of course.

One massive advantage this would give the Greeks is the ability to thwart the Vulture funds who operate in the Southern District Court in Manhattan.  The vulture funds use that court as their private bully pit for suing nations.  If Greece could do its business in Hong Kong instead, the vulture funds and even vulture nations would be.. to use the technical term, stuffed.

I realize this is scurrilous fantasy but it has, I think, enough of a ring of plausibility about it that I wonder if both sides, Greece and China/Russia/Iran/India haven’t wondered themselves.

Both sides could potentially gain major advantages.  The debt commission would still run, the fraudulent debts  would still be defaulted, the banks would still run crying to their countries to force the tax -payers to bail them out AGAIN – nothing there would be changed, but politically it would be a whole new world.

 

35 thoughts on “A scurrilous thought for Greece and China”

  1. The only problem would be the Greeks would have to give up their ports, railroads, post offices, etc. to chinese investors. Will the Greek people settle for this?

  2. Desmond Dillon

    i thought the usa was first in the queue and most eager to split greece from europe.
    their casinos could be directly involved in tapping resources believed to be off the greek coast. it would also fit well with their colony of israel.

    1. If Israel is a colony of America, why does the flow of cash stream to the colony? Why are America’s politicians genuflecting to AIPAC?

      This is not, in any sense, a wild idea: it makes sound, economic sense…and Greece would do well to take it under serious consideration.

  3. deepgreenpuddock

    I seriously wonder if any small country in distress would be well served by some unholy alliance with Russia and Iran. Germany is not much fun i daresay but better remaining in the Euro pan instead of into the smouldering embers of international tension.

    Such a move would put them in a politically parlous position by becoming some kind of international punchbag.
    The issue is irredeemably connected up with Europe and the solution will have to come from Europe .
    I can’t see China taking such a provocative stance anyway. Very dangerous thinking indeed. The west may seem an attractive target for a poke in the eye but so far, despite all the difficulties, we remain committed to a peaceful resolution of some kind.

      1. I do not think you are stirring and your article is articulate in its structure. From the Geo-political point of view the natural resources contained within Greece; Rare Earth/Gas/Oil is what has changed the game of play at the moment for Greece.

        China’s Energy needs can be topped up from the Aegean easing the stranglehold that NATO has been putting on it. In turn Russia’s NATO threat can be eased by blonking bases in Greece as I see an exit from Euro will lead to exit from NATO aswell.

        This dilemna has knocked the west for six. Syriza will, IMO, eventually fold and is currently grandstanding. The people of Greece should start calling the bluff and need to realise that the fearmongering that is currently being imposed has no validity.

        The entire Arab spring (lets face it NATO has architected this as the biggest losers have been Russia/China) and will be for nothing if greece approaches the China/Russia solution and NATO will be not only be broke but on the backfoot for the next 150years.

  4. backwardsevolution

    Just look at the money to be made if you do well for your masters:

    “Bill Clinton: ‘I never had any money until I got out of the White House, you know, but I’ve done reasonably well since then.’

    On December 21, 2000, President Bill Clinton signed a bill called the Commodities Futures Modernization Act. This law ensured that derivatives could not be regulated, setting the stage for the financial crisis. Just two months later, on February 5, 2001, Clinton received $125,000 from Morgan Stanley, in the form of a payment for a speech Clinton gave for the company in New York City. A few weeks later, Credit Suisse also hired Clinton for a speech, at a $125,000 speaking fee, also in New York. It turns out, Bill Clinton could make a lot of money, for not very much work.

    Today, Clinton is worth something on the order of $80 million…..”

    AND:

    “Over the course of the next ten years after his Presidency, Clinton brought in roughly $8-10 million a year in speaking fees. In 2004, Clinton got $250,000 from Citigroup and $150,000 from Deutsche Bank. Goldman paid him $300,000 for two speeches, one in Paris. As the bubble peaked, in 2006, Clinton got $150,000 paydays each from Citigroup (twice), Lehman Brothers, the Mortgage Bankers Association, and the National Association of Realtors. In 2007, it was Goldman again, twice, Lehman, Citigroup, and Merrill Lynch. He didn’t just reap speaking fee cash from the financial services sector – corporate titans like Oracle and outsourcing specialist Cisco paid up, as did many Israel-focused groups, Middle Eastern interests, and universities. Does this explain the finance-friendly, oil-friendly and Israel First-friendly policies pursued by the State Department under Hillary Clinton? Who knows? But if you could legally deliver millions in cash to the husband of a high-level political official, it wouldn’t hurt your policy goals.

    Speaking fee money isn’t just money, it is easy money. In one appearance, for one hour, Clinton can make $125,000 to $500,000. At an hourly rate, that’s between $250 million to $1 billion annually. It isn’t the case that Clinton is a billionaire, but it is the case that Clinton can, whenever he wants, make money as quickly and as easily as a billionaire. He is awash in cash, and cash is useful. Cash finances his lifestyle. Cash helped backstop his wife’s Presidential campaign when it was on the ropes.

    And these speaking fees aren’t the only money Clinton got, it’s just the easiest cash to find because of disclosure laws. Apparently, Clinton’s firm apparently had a paid $100k+ a month consulting relationship with MF Global, and Clinton and Tony Blair have teamed up to help hedge funds raise money.”

    http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2012/05/its-not-about-reelection-bill-clintons-80-million-payday.html

    1. Michael Reilly

      They are so drunk on hedonism they honestly do not see the consequences of their actions as being corrupt, someone has to show them, it’s all out there!

  5. It is not much of a geopolitical future if you hopes rest on being a pawn. I say this because in my view the entire chess board is about to be upset.

  6. Hmm… very interesting possibilty.

    China has been very active in Greece for many years, qietly doing deals, buying up Greek assets. Similarly Russia has been buying up Cypriot property, land and businesses like they’re going out of fashion and Cyprus has always been an active conduit into the middle east.

    So is the suggestion such of a leap of imagination? Perhaps not. It would be dynamite politically though! I can just imagine Merkel’s face in particular, if ever the prospect was muted no matter how tentatively.

  7. If there is a serious attempt by the Russians to get a foothold in Greece, it has several advantages for them.
    1/ Strategic. At the moment the Dardanelles are controlled by Turkey, and the US is building up forces in Roumania and along the western edge of the Black Sea.. In the event of a war – Russia would be better placed to have command of both ends of the Dardanelles, thus stopping US ships (and others) from supplying Georgia. There was an agreement that US ships would only have a limited presence in the Black sea which seems to have disappeared since the “Georgian” War.
    Russia already has base 101 (if I remember the number) as well as the Crimea. (Sevastapol)
    2/ Israeli and Greek forces have been practising together. IF Russia controlled the cash, then who would pay the oversized Greek military? It would also stop Israeli attacks on Iran via the “Greek” overfly+refuel.
    3/ A reserve currency made up of a “basket” of currencies would probably be based more on Gold than Fiat. (Renimbi, Ruble, real etc) Why should Greece go to Drachmas that would loose 40% of their value straight away? Why not tie them to …. Rubles or that “basket reserve currency”?

    Cashwise. IF there is a default (with, as David says an audit debt-repudiation) wouldn’t the Greeks be sitting pretty by changing their money directly to something OUTSIDE the reach of the US Dollar hegemoney or Wall street ?

    Just thinking…

  8. Syriza and Alexis Tsipras are very much open to ideas regarding solutions though i must say they have quite a solid plan. I suggest Golem you approach the man. I actually urge you to! I believe you will like the man very much and I also believe that Greece needs progressive minds regarding finance. Let us know if you do.

    1. Enexoumeypothesi

      I wonder, would you be interested to live in a country with 10 mln population and 10% of this population is public servants…have you ever had to deal with the Greek state? Would you be interested to die long before you are admitted into a Greek hospital? Would you be interested to wait for weeks until you are able to get a renewal of your passport? After of course spending days visiting different buildings in Athens to get the necessary docs for your passport renewal…!How does this sound : you want to establish a limited company in Greece, can you wait for about a year until you can get through this Greek beauraucracy that will allow you to do so….everybody talks about investments in Greece BUT nobody talks about the necessary changes that need to be made in the Greek system in order to receive these investments. But the of course Tsipras has suggested that the public sector should hire an additional 100.000 public servants in order for money (i.e. salaries) flow into the Greek economy. You know, Tsipras is young with leftist ideas that like capitalism proven not to be workable in the real world. The motto is very simple actually : spend more than you earn and it will eventually catch up with you.

  9. backwardsevolution

    An interesting perspective:

    “When you’re looking at the actions of the EU, or trying to predict its behavior, you have to understand that it was formed precisely so that it would reach this point — and then fail. When it was 27 sovereign states, it would have been nearly impossible to convince the governments of each state to adopt policies that would neutralize their own ability to regulate the behavior of corporations.

    It’s quite an ingenious scheme, really. Adopt “free trade” policies. Import cheap manufactured goods from Asia. Export jobs. Suck billions of $$ (or Euros) from the middle class. Reduce taxes on the uber-wealthy, and reduce corporate taxes. It doesn’t take that long for the governments to get deeply into debt. Wait! Here’s the IMF to the rescue! If only we adopt neo-liberal economic policies, we’ll get all our debts paid off! Yay! We just have to convince our working classes that they’re paid way too much, and that they don’t deserve to have the prosperity that they enjoyed for the last few decades. No problem.

    The EU is imploding because it was designed to do exactly that. We’re in the late stages, and there’s some debate about exactly when the EU will fail, but make no mistake — it will fail. The *only* way that you could bankrupt Germany is to get them to bail out other countries. There’s no way to make them fail on their own.

    The neo-liberals (called “neo-conservatives” in the U.S.) have been successful with their strategy of taking over the U.S. Government, and passing the legislation that they need to have the Government bankrupt itself — without much resistance so far.

    Once you understand the original purpose, everything makes a lot more sense.”

  10. backwardsevolution

    “They should start by placing all the bonds they issued and which LaGarde’s IMF, along with the other banksters, lent upon into the paper shredder and send the bits to the ECB and LaGarde via FedEx. After all, every one of these institutions was part and parcel of increasing credit into their economy at a greater rate than GDP, and thus was fully aware they were effectively counterfeiting Euros into the Greek economy.

    That this action was legal doesn’t change the moral depravity of the act, nor does it excuse those who committed it from the consequences.

    The consequence, incidentally, is that you lose your money as you don’t get repaid, and the bogus nature of your claimed “asset valuations” and lack of capital behind your positions is exposed.

    This detonates your firm (and maybe your central bank too.) Awwwww… cry me a river.

    None of this changes the fact that Greece cannot spend more in its government than it taxes. That has to change, and it has to change right now.

    But it is manifestly unjust, and should be corrected through whatever means are necessary, that only the Greeks should bear that consequence while the banksters who knew damn well what they were doing get away with being willing and active co-conspirators.

    This nonsense will not stop until someone stands up to these jackals and points out that they’re not going to get paid as the lender was fully aware they were emitting unbacked credit into the system with no mathematical possibility of repayment. That is, they were willingly and intentionally promulgating a Ponzi Scheme.

    The other nations in Europe should likewise erect the middle finger, simultaneously having the necessary debate with their citizens over the services that they want government to provide and implement the tax structure necessary to do so.

    Greece, in a word, needs to reply quite simply “No” and make clear that it is explicitly authorizing its citizens and military to resist by whatever means are appropriate and necessary should any part of the “Troika”, or any bank associated with same, attempt to tamper with the nation’s internal affairs.

    Enough is enough.”

    http://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?post=206466

  11. Enexoumeypothesi

    Golem

    I usually like your approach to matters that happen now days in Europe and elsewhere. But when it comes to Greece, well something that we Greeks forget is the simple fact that WE brought this chaos into our country. It all started in 1981 when the biggest crook of all Greek politicians was voted in power. Very few people remember today the ”Tsovola dosta ola” (meaning Tsovola give everything)!!! Since then everything Greek exploded : public servants, evading taxes, loans to pay for not producing anything, etc etc etc……Today, if I wasn’t Greek, I would definately bark at my country’s politicians giving my hard earn money to the Greek people when we all see that NO real measures are taken to change the deep rooted problems of the Greek economy and society.

    1. backwardsevolution

      Enexoumeypothesi – it sounds like Greece really needs to get their own house in order (not spending more than it takes in in taxes), making sure that all people are paying a fair tax (not evading it), ensuring that Greek banks are solvent and only giving out loans to credit-worthy customers, etc.

      BUT, as the article I posted above sets out, Greece should not bear the full burden. They need to smarten up, yes, but who gave the credit card to the children? Professional bankers did! From the beginning, these bankers set Greece up to be more than it was, in order to get it into the club. The Greek people enjoyed a huge party (just like the subprime borrowers in the States did), but who allowed them to do this? The bankers did.

      When you, as a professional banker, knowingly give out credit to people YOU KNOW CAN’T PAY YOU BACK, is it any surprise that you are now going to get fried?

      The bankers made a huge mistake, and they should pay for it. They want the Greek people and all the rest of the taxpayers to bail them out. NO, THEY KNEW WHAT THEY WERE DOING FROM THE GET-GO.

      Greece should default on their debt, debt they should never have been allowed to take on, and the bankers should get nothing. Then Greece needs to get their country in order.

    2. It’s a bit of a mess this particular universe, the mathematics that make it tick seem to me to be heavily formulated to produce a system that heavily relies on destruction to achieve progress. We need supernova explosions to produce iron in order to simply exist & on a much smaller scale we seem to have the same system within us as a species in order that we can progress on this planet.

      Maybe the Great Depression was the equivalent of a white dwarf & WW2 was the supernova that followed, a destruction of the lives of 50 million people. We did progress from that devastation, but what a cost. It seems unfortunately that these events get bigger through time, but so far those who survive eventually seem to benefit from the cataclysm as in WW1 which broke the stranglehold of a semi-feudal Europe run by a bunch of inter connected Royal families.

      And so it goes the never ending battle between the empty power junkie tyrants, who exist on every level of society & those who give a shit about the welfare of their fellow men. I fear this is going to be the biggest yet, the so far ultimate self induced explosion on this speck of dust within the miracle that is the universe or more hopefully, the multiverse.

      We are bound by the chiaroscuro or the contrast, we only know light because of darkness, joy because of despair, heat because of cold & love because of hate. I am optimistic though, because despite our obvious faults as witnesses to the all of it, we have created magic. Inevitably we are all victims of the system, lifespans not even a micro dot within an unimaginable infinity but our every action, like ripples, I think, somehow counts within the mystery.

      We have one hell of a fight on our hands in damage limitation & the effort to rebuild something better.

      . I will probably regret this post & the red wine I am now drinking & apologise now if it these words are deemed inappropriate My only excuse is that it has been for me, an incredibly tough fortnight.

      1. What more can be said?! Just that I totally agree with you and thanks for sharing yout thoughts too.

  12. backwardsevolution

    steviefinn – That was beautifully said, poetic. The current system is not benefiting people or the planet, and it must be stopped, but I too am optimistic that we can together make a better world.

  13. Loved your post steviefinn

    Being is a seriously remote corner of NE Turkey, with limited access to Internet and quite busy helping my son set up a survey, I’ve been trying use what of bit of free time is available to catch up. Been through the two previous blog posts re A Way Forward and done some posting links to the relevant NatCAN discussion here http://bit.ly/LtX9oO .

    Was quite interested in David’s thoughts re using the political process and have canvassed others on that topic. Below are a couple of responses:

    >

    Problem in the UK is that the majority already have permanently turned their backs on “Democracy” ..Turn out of 30 odd % is evidenced almost everywhere these days.

    We need to educate the public about what’s really going on before anything else is tried.

    That will take at least two generations after the relentless dumbing down of society which the Globalists have pumped trillions of propaganda into.

    Devolution to the micro local level is the key..not necessarily a panacea but it is the only hope we have of turning things around again. You can’t simply get elected and change the system from the inside……politicians who try this quickly vanish, often in aeroplane crashes with no specific cause, or assassin’s ambush.

    Bottom up…possibly, but we still need leaders capable of being supported by a majority. Whichever way you look at things, if democracy is failing it needs overthrowing and replacing with an alternative. Beyond military coups I can’t see any other way (with the power) of overthrowing the current system/s.

    I have no answer. As individuals we are all impotent, unable to change anything globally; after all “they’ve” had more than 100 years start on us.

    Power corrupts etc…that’s where we are with no back door escape hatch unfortunately.

    Dreamers will play their games devising possible alternatives, but in reality they are simply wasting their lives devising the unworkable.

    Human nature will always get in the way….not everybody is honest and/or hive minded.

    Serfdom beckons for most.

    >

    I agree very much that our system of giving top dominance to nation states is now seriously in the way and inadequate to deal not just with democracy requirements but also the survival of our global habitat. The ideas floated in D Malone’s bog are interesting and a useful breaking out of the box we have trapped ourselves in by the power given to the nation state system at global level. I am on the fence though as to whether creating a new political party is the best use of scarce effort, though this one looks a bit like an EU version of what I want at local level – a system of pooling differences to get sensible independents elected who will look at issues on their merits and not from the destructive party political game that now dominates local democracy.

    Another idea breaking out of the same box is put forward by Simpol – a new way of using the democratic elections system in all countries without having to create new political parties – to elect politicians of any party who adopt the idea of new ways of taking decisions that can be taken only at global level and can’t any longer be taken at national level – for the very reasons that David Malone identifies – national politicians are now powerless at global level as they are out faced by the global corporates. A Tobin tax is a good example.

    You can see more about Simpol’s approach at http://www.simpol.org

    I recommend becoming acquainted with it.

    >

    David was guest speaker at NatCAN’s first national conference. There will be a second national conference in early July. Some thinking and planning to be done before then.

  14. Joe Taylor May 27, 2012 at 3:01 pm
    Good post. You make a similar point, but better than I did. The resilience of the human species in the future may well be on a local/micro level. The last 100-200 years have seen a huge period of economic growth, but this growth was very much tied to a source of cheap and plentiful, and portable energy; oil. As this source maxes out its annual supply, I don’t see how growth can continue. Certainly the debt based financial system cannot cope already. As the current version of capitalism is dependent on huge firms, globalisation, and heavily indebted consumers, it will start to crumble. The masses will either take to drink, or look for local solutions as they attempt to feed themselves and keep a roof over their heads. This chaotic change is not necessary, but politicians will always defend the status quo, until the status quo is not worth defending any more.

  15. I’ve been suggesting this type of tie up for months. Including Germany, Syria, Lebenon and Palastine would make it more worthwhile though.

  16. The U.S is already stressed. I think the Greeks need to stand up and stop bailing out the financial institutions. We are doing the same here in the USA. The Greeks will never solve their problems unless they want to solve the problems themselves. Their political system as I understand created these problems. The only way to solve this is from within.

    This is going to take honest politicains and the people prepared to take a dose of hard times for a while. None of this is going to be easy. But looking from the outside in the ECB and bankers is are paying themselves back and throwing Greece scraps. This process may take a gereration or two to solve under the current plan. But just like the USA and probably with most of the westernized countries no one wants to take any pain or solve the actual problems, we just dance around the issues.

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