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	Comments on: Democracy or the Banks &#8211; which do you want? &#8211; Corrected.	</title>
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	<description>Author of THE DEBT GENERATION</description>
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		<title>
		By: Neil		</title>
		<link>https://www.golemxiv.co.uk/2011/10/democracy-at-the-brink/#comment-6687</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Neil]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Oct 2011 08:09:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.golemxiv.co.uk/?p=804#comment-6687</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://www.golemxiv.co.uk/2011/10/democracy-at-the-brink/#comment-6678&quot;&gt;StevieFinn&lt;/a&gt;.

For a table showing figures for banks including Barclays ($868 billion), RBS ($541bn) and Bank of Scotland ($181bn), see p. 131 of the document, http://sanders.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/GAO%20Fed%20Investigation.pdf  (p. 144 of the PDF) - easiest to search for &quot;Scotland&quot;. 

Note however, the qualification before the table:

&quot;Table 8 aggregates total dollar
transaction amounts by adding the total dollar amount of all loans but
does not adjust these amounts to reflect differences across programs in
the term over which loans were outstanding. For example, an overnight
PDCF loan of $10 billion that was renewed daily at the same level for 30
business days would result in an aggregate amount borrowed of $300
billion although the institution, in effect, borrowed only $10 billion over 30 days. In contrast, a TAF loan of $10 billion extended over a 1-month
period would appear as $10 billion. As a result, the total transaction
amounts shown in table 8 for PDCF are not directly comparable to the
total transaction amounts shown for TAF and other programs that made
loans for periods longer than overnight.&quot;]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://www.golemxiv.co.uk/2011/10/democracy-at-the-brink/#comment-6678">StevieFinn</a>.</p>
<p>For a table showing figures for banks including Barclays ($868 billion), RBS ($541bn) and Bank of Scotland ($181bn), see p. 131 of the document, <a href="http://sanders.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/GAO%20Fed%20Investigation.pdf" rel="nofollow ugc">http://sanders.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/GAO%20Fed%20Investigation.pdf</a>  (p. 144 of the PDF) &#8211; easiest to search for &#8220;Scotland&#8221;. </p>
<p>Note however, the qualification before the table:</p>
<p>&#8220;Table 8 aggregates total dollar<br />
transaction amounts by adding the total dollar amount of all loans but<br />
does not adjust these amounts to reflect differences across programs in<br />
the term over which loans were outstanding. For example, an overnight<br />
PDCF loan of $10 billion that was renewed daily at the same level for 30<br />
business days would result in an aggregate amount borrowed of $300<br />
billion although the institution, in effect, borrowed only $10 billion over 30 days. In contrast, a TAF loan of $10 billion extended over a 1-month<br />
period would appear as $10 billion. As a result, the total transaction<br />
amounts shown in table 8 for PDCF are not directly comparable to the<br />
total transaction amounts shown for TAF and other programs that made<br />
loans for periods longer than overnight.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>
		By: StevieFinn		</title>
		<link>https://www.golemxiv.co.uk/2011/10/democracy-at-the-brink/#comment-6678</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[StevieFinn]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Oct 2011 23:28:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.golemxiv.co.uk/?p=804#comment-6678</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://www.golemxiv.co.uk/2011/10/democracy-at-the-brink/#comment-6671&quot;&gt;Delayed Reader&lt;/a&gt;.

Perhaps that&#039;s why the majority don&#039;t believe, it is  truly incredible after all. Thanks for the link.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://www.golemxiv.co.uk/2011/10/democracy-at-the-brink/#comment-6671">Delayed Reader</a>.</p>
<p>Perhaps that&#8217;s why the majority don&#8217;t believe, it is  truly incredible after all. Thanks for the link.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Delayed Reader		</title>
		<link>https://www.golemxiv.co.uk/2011/10/democracy-at-the-brink/#comment-6672</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Delayed Reader]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Oct 2011 18:23:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.golemxiv.co.uk/?p=804#comment-6672</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[My apologies, I wrote $16billion when as you can see from the cut/paste it should have been $16trillion. 

That&#039;s a lot of money either way.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My apologies, I wrote $16billion when as you can see from the cut/paste it should have been $16trillion. </p>
<p>That&#8217;s a lot of money either way.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Delayed Reader		</title>
		<link>https://www.golemxiv.co.uk/2011/10/democracy-at-the-brink/#comment-6671</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Delayed Reader]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Oct 2011 18:21:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.golemxiv.co.uk/?p=804#comment-6671</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Hello readers,

Anyone still reading this topic?

I couldn&#039;t see anywhere more appropriate to post this little gem, and couldn&#039;t find an email address for Mr Malone himself to send it direct... assuming it&#039;s true it&#039;s a shame it&#039;s not had much more coverage, especially before yesterday&#039;s Occupy stuff.

Anyway, it seems that earlier this year, US Senator Bernie Sanders (Vermont) asked the US General Accountability Office for an investigation into a particular set of circumstances and what they reported in July is a $16TRILLION [corrected from saying billion originally] bailout/loan/subsidy from the Fed to banks around the world. From his website:

&quot;As a result of this audit, we now know that the Federal Reserve provided more than $16 trillion in total financial assistance to some of the largest financial institutions and corporations in the United States and throughout the world,&quot; said Sanders. &quot;This is a clear case of socialism for the rich and rugged, you&#039;re-on-your-own individualism for everyone else.&quot;

http://sanders.senate.gov/newsroom/news/?id=9e2a4ea8-6e73-4be2-a753-62060dcbb3c3

If you were to make this stuff up, no one would believe you.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hello readers,</p>
<p>Anyone still reading this topic?</p>
<p>I couldn&#8217;t see anywhere more appropriate to post this little gem, and couldn&#8217;t find an email address for Mr Malone himself to send it direct&#8230; assuming it&#8217;s true it&#8217;s a shame it&#8217;s not had much more coverage, especially before yesterday&#8217;s Occupy stuff.</p>
<p>Anyway, it seems that earlier this year, US Senator Bernie Sanders (Vermont) asked the US General Accountability Office for an investigation into a particular set of circumstances and what they reported in July is a $16TRILLION [corrected from saying billion originally] bailout/loan/subsidy from the Fed to banks around the world. From his website:</p>
<p>&#8220;As a result of this audit, we now know that the Federal Reserve provided more than $16 trillion in total financial assistance to some of the largest financial institutions and corporations in the United States and throughout the world,&#8221; said Sanders. &#8220;This is a clear case of socialism for the rich and rugged, you&#8217;re-on-your-own individualism for everyone else.&#8221;</p>
<p><a href="http://sanders.senate.gov/newsroom/news/?id=9e2a4ea8-6e73-4be2-a753-62060dcbb3c3" rel="nofollow ugc">http://sanders.senate.gov/newsroom/news/?id=9e2a4ea8-6e73-4be2-a753-62060dcbb3c3</a></p>
<p>If you were to make this stuff up, no one would believe you.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Paulie Ire		</title>
		<link>https://www.golemxiv.co.uk/2011/10/democracy-at-the-brink/#comment-6360</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Paulie Ire]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Oct 2011 15:36:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.golemxiv.co.uk/?p=804#comment-6360</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://www.golemxiv.co.uk/2011/10/democracy-at-the-brink/#comment-6327&quot;&gt;Mike Hall&lt;/a&gt;.

@Mike

Thanks for the links, kept me awake last night, definitely a must see!

On the thing os the importance of the Slovakian vote, when Merkel and Sarkozy were having their meeting a couple of weeks ago there was a news report saying that it didn&#039;t matter if the smaller countries in the EU didn&#039;t take part as their financial input would be minimal but then that was I think the &#039;Sky News&#039; propaganda machine, I imagine that they have to agree to it in principle to allow it to go ahead though. Maybe like Lisbon for Ireland if they say no the first time they will be asked again &#039;Are You Sure?&#039;]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://www.golemxiv.co.uk/2011/10/democracy-at-the-brink/#comment-6327">Mike Hall</a>.</p>
<p>@Mike</p>
<p>Thanks for the links, kept me awake last night, definitely a must see!</p>
<p>On the thing os the importance of the Slovakian vote, when Merkel and Sarkozy were having their meeting a couple of weeks ago there was a news report saying that it didn&#8217;t matter if the smaller countries in the EU didn&#8217;t take part as their financial input would be minimal but then that was I think the &#8216;Sky News&#8217; propaganda machine, I imagine that they have to agree to it in principle to allow it to go ahead though. Maybe like Lisbon for Ireland if they say no the first time they will be asked again &#8216;Are You Sure?&#8217;</p>
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		<title>
		By: Mike Hall		</title>
		<link>https://www.golemxiv.co.uk/2011/10/democracy-at-the-brink/#comment-6345</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Mike Hall]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Oct 2011 10:47:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.golemxiv.co.uk/?p=804#comment-6345</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://www.golemxiv.co.uk/2011/10/democracy-at-the-brink/#comment-6331&quot;&gt;Neil&lt;/a&gt;.

I wouldn&#039;t argue at all with your placement of education in the list of priorities. If we consider media as a key resource for continuing education, two sides of the same coin really.

Great links, I think a great resource is developing here besides Golem&#039;s incisive commentaries on events! Just goes to show how much evidence &#038; info is really out there. Perhaps a further argument that the media could do a great deal more to broaden its scope if they had the inclination to look. I wasn&#039;t aware of the work you&#039;ve mentioned &#038; I&#039;m, well, generally &#039;looking&#039;. God knows how a more casual observer of things can gain a deeper understanding.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://www.golemxiv.co.uk/2011/10/democracy-at-the-brink/#comment-6331">Neil</a>.</p>
<p>I wouldn&#8217;t argue at all with your placement of education in the list of priorities. If we consider media as a key resource for continuing education, two sides of the same coin really.</p>
<p>Great links, I think a great resource is developing here besides Golem&#8217;s incisive commentaries on events! Just goes to show how much evidence &amp; info is really out there. Perhaps a further argument that the media could do a great deal more to broaden its scope if they had the inclination to look. I wasn&#8217;t aware of the work you&#8217;ve mentioned &amp; I&#8217;m, well, generally &#8216;looking&#8217;. God knows how a more casual observer of things can gain a deeper understanding.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Charles Wheeler		</title>
		<link>https://www.golemxiv.co.uk/2011/10/democracy-at-the-brink/#comment-6344</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Charles Wheeler]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Oct 2011 10:39:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.golemxiv.co.uk/?p=804#comment-6344</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[&lt;em&gt;&quot;Raghuram Rajan has an extraordinary statistic. That if you look at the the growth in real incomes between 1976 and 2007, 58% of it went to the top 1%.

&lt;em&gt;Faced with this, governments made a political choice. Rather than reform society, they removed all restrictions, gave up on their moral disapproval, and allowed a system to be created by the bankers that let everyone borrow.

&lt;em&gt;It was better to give in and allow the &quot;little people&quot; to borrow rather than let them keep on striking and threaten social order. And what&#039;s more you could make lots of money out of it.

I am intrigued by this argument because it is the first time I have seen someone take the financial crisis and put it in a political and historical perspective.&quot; Adam Curtis&lt;/em&gt;
http://goo.gl/7aRP

Reminded me of this: http://youtu.be/TZU3wfjtIJY?t=7m13s]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>&#8220;Raghuram Rajan has an extraordinary statistic. That if you look at the the growth in real incomes between 1976 and 2007, 58% of it went to the top 1%.</p>
<p></em><em>Faced with this, governments made a political choice. Rather than reform society, they removed all restrictions, gave up on their moral disapproval, and allowed a system to be created by the bankers that let everyone borrow.</p>
<p></em><em>It was better to give in and allow the &#8220;little people&#8221; to borrow rather than let them keep on striking and threaten social order. And what&#8217;s more you could make lots of money out of it.</p>
<p>I am intrigued by this argument because it is the first time I have seen someone take the financial crisis and put it in a political and historical perspective.&#8221; Adam Curtis</em><br />
<a href="http://goo.gl/7aRP" rel="nofollow ugc">http://goo.gl/7aRP</a></p>
<p>Reminded me of this: <a href="http://youtu.be/TZU3wfjtIJY?t=7m13s" rel="nofollow ugc">http://youtu.be/TZU3wfjtIJY?t=7m13s</a></p>
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		<title>
		By: Neil		</title>
		<link>https://www.golemxiv.co.uk/2011/10/democracy-at-the-brink/#comment-6343</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Neil]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Oct 2011 10:28:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.golemxiv.co.uk/?p=804#comment-6343</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://www.golemxiv.co.uk/2011/10/democracy-at-the-brink/#comment-6331&quot;&gt;Neil&lt;/a&gt;.

Westen&#039;s findings seem to tie in with this new report, which suggests 80% of people are optimists even in the face of evidence to the contrary.

&quot;Brain &#039;rejects negative thoughts&#039;

&quot;Don&#039;t worry, everything will be fine,&quot; says the brain

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-15214080]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://www.golemxiv.co.uk/2011/10/democracy-at-the-brink/#comment-6331">Neil</a>.</p>
<p>Westen&#8217;s findings seem to tie in with this new report, which suggests 80% of people are optimists even in the face of evidence to the contrary.</p>
<p>&#8220;Brain &#8216;rejects negative thoughts&#8217;</p>
<p>&#8220;Don&#8217;t worry, everything will be fine,&#8221; says the brain</p>
<p><a href="http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-15214080" rel="nofollow ugc">http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-15214080</a></p>
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		<title>
		By: Mike Hall		</title>
		<link>https://www.golemxiv.co.uk/2011/10/democracy-at-the-brink/#comment-6335</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Mike Hall]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Oct 2011 00:29:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.golemxiv.co.uk/?p=804#comment-6335</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://www.golemxiv.co.uk/2011/10/democracy-at-the-brink/#comment-6332&quot;&gt;cynicalHighlander&lt;/a&gt;.

@ Jerry

I think the US may have a leading postion in the league of corporate &#038; bankister greed, but the margin is small with respect to most other countries.

To answer your question, I believe yes, it is perfectly possible. I think all people, including the rich, perhaps especially them, need to realise that something truly wonderful awaits humanity if we can get beyond the mindset of selfishness &#038; greed &#038; the illusion that personal fulfillment &#038; collective welfare are incompatible - in fact the truth is quite opposite.

So, off the top my head, but drawing on ideas I&#039;ve long held, taking note of cynicalHighlander&#039;s well offered (but not so cynical!) link, a suggestion.

What say we aimed to halve the 40 week for work that perhaps we need to contribute to provide for all our essential needs, food, shelter etc. Then with the rest of our time we pursue whatever creative, enlightening endeavours we choose? I think we could really surprise ourselves with just this measure of &#039;freedom&#039; that the &#039;Manifesto&#039; proposes?

Can we design and implement a society that does this which is neither our unfettered sociopathic capitalism nor a centrally planned totalitarianism, fully democratic to extent that the present is not?

Absolutely, 100%.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://www.golemxiv.co.uk/2011/10/democracy-at-the-brink/#comment-6332">cynicalHighlander</a>.</p>
<p>@ Jerry</p>
<p>I think the US may have a leading postion in the league of corporate &amp; bankister greed, but the margin is small with respect to most other countries.</p>
<p>To answer your question, I believe yes, it is perfectly possible. I think all people, including the rich, perhaps especially them, need to realise that something truly wonderful awaits humanity if we can get beyond the mindset of selfishness &amp; greed &amp; the illusion that personal fulfillment &amp; collective welfare are incompatible &#8211; in fact the truth is quite opposite.</p>
<p>So, off the top my head, but drawing on ideas I&#8217;ve long held, taking note of cynicalHighlander&#8217;s well offered (but not so cynical!) link, a suggestion.</p>
<p>What say we aimed to halve the 40 week for work that perhaps we need to contribute to provide for all our essential needs, food, shelter etc. Then with the rest of our time we pursue whatever creative, enlightening endeavours we choose? I think we could really surprise ourselves with just this measure of &#8216;freedom&#8217; that the &#8216;Manifesto&#8217; proposes?</p>
<p>Can we design and implement a society that does this which is neither our unfettered sociopathic capitalism nor a centrally planned totalitarianism, fully democratic to extent that the present is not?</p>
<p>Absolutely, 100%.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Neil		</title>
		<link>https://www.golemxiv.co.uk/2011/10/democracy-at-the-brink/#comment-6333</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Neil]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 09 Oct 2011 22:34:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.golemxiv.co.uk/?p=804#comment-6333</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://www.golemxiv.co.uk/2011/10/democracy-at-the-brink/#comment-6329&quot;&gt;Neil&lt;/a&gt;.

Latest from Zerohedge:

Slovakia On Why It Votes &quot;No&quot; To EFSF Expansion: &quot;The Greatest Threat To The Euro Is The Bailout Fund Itself&quot;
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/slovakia-why-it-votes-no-efsf-expansion-greatest-threat-euro-bailout-fund-itself 

Actually, it&#039;s an interview with the leader of the minority party that&#039;s the fly in the ointment, who says: 

&quot;It&#039;s an attempt to use fresh debt to solve the debt crisis. That will never work.
[...]
We have to observe three points: First, we have to strictly adhere to the existing rules, such as not being liable for others&#039; debts, just as it&#039;s spelled out in Article 125 of the Lisbon Treaty. Second, we have to let Greece go bankrupt and have the banks involved in the debt-restructuring. The creditors will have to relinquish 50 to perhaps 70 percent of their claims. So far, the agreements on that have been a joke. Third, we have to be adamant about cost-cutting and manage budgets in a responsible way.&quot;

&quot;The ruling coalition is composed of four parties. My party will vote &quot;no&quot;; the other three coalition parties intend to say &quot;yes.&quot; What the opposition says is decisive.&quot;

Another ZH headline: The CEO Of Failed Dexia Made €1.95 Million In 2009 And 2010. It&#039;s about to be broken up and nationalised.

For the Dexia back story, see http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-15180153 .]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://www.golemxiv.co.uk/2011/10/democracy-at-the-brink/#comment-6329">Neil</a>.</p>
<p>Latest from Zerohedge:</p>
<p>Slovakia On Why It Votes &#8220;No&#8221; To EFSF Expansion: &#8220;The Greatest Threat To The Euro Is The Bailout Fund Itself&#8221;<br />
<a href="http://www.zerohedge.com/news/slovakia-why-it-votes-no-efsf-expansion-greatest-threat-euro-bailout-fund-itself" rel="nofollow ugc">http://www.zerohedge.com/news/slovakia-why-it-votes-no-efsf-expansion-greatest-threat-euro-bailout-fund-itself</a> </p>
<p>Actually, it&#8217;s an interview with the leader of the minority party that&#8217;s the fly in the ointment, who says: </p>
<p>&#8220;It&#8217;s an attempt to use fresh debt to solve the debt crisis. That will never work.<br />
[&#8230;]<br />
We have to observe three points: First, we have to strictly adhere to the existing rules, such as not being liable for others&#8217; debts, just as it&#8217;s spelled out in Article 125 of the Lisbon Treaty. Second, we have to let Greece go bankrupt and have the banks involved in the debt-restructuring. The creditors will have to relinquish 50 to perhaps 70 percent of their claims. So far, the agreements on that have been a joke. Third, we have to be adamant about cost-cutting and manage budgets in a responsible way.&#8221;</p>
<p>&#8220;The ruling coalition is composed of four parties. My party will vote &#8220;no&#8221;; the other three coalition parties intend to say &#8220;yes.&#8221; What the opposition says is decisive.&#8221;</p>
<p>Another ZH headline: The CEO Of Failed Dexia Made €1.95 Million In 2009 And 2010. It&#8217;s about to be broken up and nationalised.</p>
<p>For the Dexia back story, see <a href="http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-15180153" rel="nofollow ugc">http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-15180153</a> .</p>
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