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	Comments on: Greece &#8212; democracy in the balance	</title>
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	<link>https://www.golemxiv.co.uk/2012/11/greece-democracy-in-the-balance/</link>
	<description>Author of THE DEBT GENERATION</description>
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		<title>
		By: Bardo		</title>
		<link>https://www.golemxiv.co.uk/2012/11/greece-democracy-in-the-balance/#comment-22921</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bardo]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Nov 2012 20:01:07 +0000</pubDate>
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					<description><![CDATA[Here&#039;s the link to the film: http://www.catastroika.com/]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here&#8217;s the link to the film: <a href="http://www.catastroika.com/" rel="nofollow ugc">http://www.catastroika.com/</a></p>
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		<title>
		By: Bardo		</title>
		<link>https://www.golemxiv.co.uk/2012/11/greece-democracy-in-the-balance/#comment-22764</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bardo]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Nov 2012 14:09:30 +0000</pubDate>
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					<description><![CDATA[Film of the Greek Fire sale  Option to watch with English subtitles.

Please excuse if this link has already been posted...]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Film of the Greek Fire sale  Option to watch with English subtitles.</p>
<p>Please excuse if this link has already been posted&#8230;</p>
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		<title>
		By: Roger Lewis		</title>
		<link>https://www.golemxiv.co.uk/2012/11/greece-democracy-in-the-balance/#comment-22710</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Roger Lewis]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Nov 2012 05:05:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.golemxiv.co.uk/?p=1705#comment-22710</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://www.golemxiv.co.uk/2012/11/greece-democracy-in-the-balance/#comment-22141&quot;&gt;neretva&#039;43&lt;/a&gt;.

Sadly Nerevta 43, I fear that you are absolutely correct. There is no wriggle room within the extant paradigm which would lead to any sort of emancipation from the exploitative colonialism of State Monopoly Capitalism for what is these days called the 99%. For 99% read , Masses , workers, Hoi Poloi, Great unwashed or Indeed Platos Mob.
In America I have been struck by the sudden class conciousness that has emerged in Line with the Elite Narrative, Protection of the Middle Class and so on , the classless Republic and meritocracy re invented as Monarchy/ Oligarchy.
I highly recommend Michael Pearlmans book , ´ The Invention of Capitalism´ I read it about 3 years ago and it was something of an eye opener for me. Marx&#039;x conceptualisation of Primative Accumulation is very powerful. From the Peasants revolt and Watt Tyler thru the English CIvil war, The Levelers and the on into the Great Huinger and genocide in Ireland, fully supoported by mercantilist fascists and their triangular trade. Destructiioon and Genocide of the Aboruiiginal Peoples of Tasmania ( Van Daemons Land) and In Australia.
I can not do the chronology justice from memory alone and don&#039;t wish to start writing an essay. I did do a Video on the Great Hunger in Ireland , it featyures in one of James Burkes Connections programmes. I suspect that James Burkes Knowledge project has not attracted main stream funding as his approach to History is too Socratic, contrasted with Clowns ( uselful Idiots like Nial Ferguson).


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=54f0np2Jcvc

´http://en.gravatar.com/rogerglewis

The rules of randomness are so powerful that they have given physics some of its most sacrosanct and immutable laws. Though the atoms in a box full of gas are moving at random, their collective behavior is described by a simple set of deterministic equations. Even the laws of thermodynamics derive their power from the predictability of large numbers of random events; they are indisputable only because the rules of randomness are so absolute.

Paradoxically, the unpredictable behavior of random events has given us the predictions that we are most confident in.
http://www.edge.org/q2011/q11_3.html#taleb&#039;&#039;]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://www.golemxiv.co.uk/2012/11/greece-democracy-in-the-balance/#comment-22141">neretva&#8217;43</a>.</p>
<p>Sadly Nerevta 43, I fear that you are absolutely correct. There is no wriggle room within the extant paradigm which would lead to any sort of emancipation from the exploitative colonialism of State Monopoly Capitalism for what is these days called the 99%. For 99% read , Masses , workers, Hoi Poloi, Great unwashed or Indeed Platos Mob.<br />
In America I have been struck by the sudden class conciousness that has emerged in Line with the Elite Narrative, Protection of the Middle Class and so on , the classless Republic and meritocracy re invented as Monarchy/ Oligarchy.<br />
I highly recommend Michael Pearlmans book , ´ The Invention of Capitalism´ I read it about 3 years ago and it was something of an eye opener for me. Marx&#8217;x conceptualisation of Primative Accumulation is very powerful. From the Peasants revolt and Watt Tyler thru the English CIvil war, The Levelers and the on into the Great Huinger and genocide in Ireland, fully supoported by mercantilist fascists and their triangular trade. Destructiioon and Genocide of the Aboruiiginal Peoples of Tasmania ( Van Daemons Land) and In Australia.<br />
I can not do the chronology justice from memory alone and don&#8217;t wish to start writing an essay. I did do a Video on the Great Hunger in Ireland , it featyures in one of James Burkes Connections programmes. I suspect that James Burkes Knowledge project has not attracted main stream funding as his approach to History is too Socratic, contrasted with Clowns ( uselful Idiots like Nial Ferguson).</p>
<p><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=54f0np2Jcvc" rel="nofollow ugc">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=54f0np2Jcvc</a></p>
<p>´http://en.gravatar.com/rogerglewis</p>
<p>The rules of randomness are so powerful that they have given physics some of its most sacrosanct and immutable laws. Though the atoms in a box full of gas are moving at random, their collective behavior is described by a simple set of deterministic equations. Even the laws of thermodynamics derive their power from the predictability of large numbers of random events; they are indisputable only because the rules of randomness are so absolute.</p>
<p>Paradoxically, the unpredictable behavior of random events has given us the predictions that we are most confident in.<br />
<a href="http://www.edge.org/q2011/q11_3.html#taleb" rel="nofollow ugc">http://www.edge.org/q2011/q11_3.html#taleb</a>&#8221;</p>
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		<title>
		By: SidFinster		</title>
		<link>https://www.golemxiv.co.uk/2012/11/greece-democracy-in-the-balance/#comment-22672</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[SidFinster]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Nov 2012 21:54:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.golemxiv.co.uk/?p=1705#comment-22672</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://www.golemxiv.co.uk/2012/11/greece-democracy-in-the-balance/#comment-22238&quot;&gt;backwardsevolution&lt;/a&gt;.

The Troika is not going to blackmail anyone. Expect thevruling coalition in Greece to do that.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://www.golemxiv.co.uk/2012/11/greece-democracy-in-the-balance/#comment-22238">backwardsevolution</a>.</p>
<p>The Troika is not going to blackmail anyone. Expect thevruling coalition in Greece to do that.</p>
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		<title>
		By: backwardsevolution		</title>
		<link>https://www.golemxiv.co.uk/2012/11/greece-democracy-in-the-balance/#comment-22238</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[backwardsevolution]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Nov 2012 19:53:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.golemxiv.co.uk/?p=1705#comment-22238</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://www.golemxiv.co.uk/2012/11/greece-democracy-in-the-balance/#comment-22026&quot;&gt;SidFinster&lt;/a&gt;.

Sid - I&#039;ll stick with what I posted:   &quot;The Greek Establishment is (naturally) doing nothing to investigate these 54,000 people, because the 54,000 ARE the Greek establishment.”

Blackmail?  You mean Greek ministers and officials have removed their money, and you think the Troika is going to use this information to blackmail these officials into voting the way the Troika wants them to?

It&#039;s probably a little of both.  Maybe this is happening now, but how about the years when these very people were paying nothing in taxes while making a fortune?  Like help like.

Any way you slice it, this is going to blow.  It&#039;s just a matter of time.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://www.golemxiv.co.uk/2012/11/greece-democracy-in-the-balance/#comment-22026">SidFinster</a>.</p>
<p>Sid &#8211; I&#8217;ll stick with what I posted:   &#8220;The Greek Establishment is (naturally) doing nothing to investigate these 54,000 people, because the 54,000 ARE the Greek establishment.”</p>
<p>Blackmail?  You mean Greek ministers and officials have removed their money, and you think the Troika is going to use this information to blackmail these officials into voting the way the Troika wants them to?</p>
<p>It&#8217;s probably a little of both.  Maybe this is happening now, but how about the years when these very people were paying nothing in taxes while making a fortune?  Like help like.</p>
<p>Any way you slice it, this is going to blow.  It&#8217;s just a matter of time.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Andrea		</title>
		<link>https://www.golemxiv.co.uk/2012/11/greece-democracy-in-the-balance/#comment-22228</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Andrea]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Nov 2012 18:33:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.golemxiv.co.uk/?p=1705#comment-22228</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://www.golemxiv.co.uk/2012/11/greece-democracy-in-the-balance/#comment-22141&quot;&gt;neretva&#039;43&lt;/a&gt;.

And there is the Church, Greek Orthodox Church,  neretva, as you know, who owns a fair part of the country and claims taxes revenues,  and refuses to pay any itself.   (Long and complicated history.) 

It lives high on the hog, etc. but that is never discussed.  Never!]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://www.golemxiv.co.uk/2012/11/greece-democracy-in-the-balance/#comment-22141">neretva&#8217;43</a>.</p>
<p>And there is the Church, Greek Orthodox Church,  neretva, as you know, who owns a fair part of the country and claims taxes revenues,  and refuses to pay any itself.   (Long and complicated history.) </p>
<p>It lives high on the hog, etc. but that is never discussed.  Never!</p>
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		<title>
		By: neretva'43		</title>
		<link>https://www.golemxiv.co.uk/2012/11/greece-democracy-in-the-balance/#comment-22142</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[neretva'43]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Nov 2012 03:14:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.golemxiv.co.uk/?p=1705#comment-22142</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In what kind of democracy we are livinig this article may confirm.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/british-arms-deals-quick-death-fast-profits/5310655

&quot;While Cameron and British Foreign Secretary William Hague stand in front of TV cameras and make warm sounding speeches about humanitarianism and the precious nature of human life, they and their arms dealing buddies are all to willing to play fast and loose with the lives of millions of people through their militarism, the ratcheting up of regional tensions and the sanctioning of arms deals.&quot;

And Germans (French too) doing this for quite some time. Where? In Greece.

http://www.hellasfrappe.blogspot.com/2012/11/skaramagas-vaxevanis-points-to-pasok.html
- How Paying Double For German Subs Helped To Sink Greece
- EXPOSED - Classified Documents About Bribery From German Arms Manufacturers To Greek Politicians
- An Introduction And Analysis Of The Siemens and Ferrostaal Scandals
- Forgiving Siemens And German Corruption in Greece

Still wondering where is the money that &quot;lazy&quot; Greeks squandered? 

Thanks to Germany and French, Greek state spend on arms more than anybody in Europe, if I am not mistaken they have more tank than any country (per capita) in Europe. Who they suppose fight with? Turkey of course. 

Democracy!?]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In what kind of democracy we are livinig this article may confirm.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.globalresearch.ca/british-arms-deals-quick-death-fast-profits/5310655" rel="nofollow ugc">http://www.globalresearch.ca/british-arms-deals-quick-death-fast-profits/5310655</a></p>
<p>&#8220;While Cameron and British Foreign Secretary William Hague stand in front of TV cameras and make warm sounding speeches about humanitarianism and the precious nature of human life, they and their arms dealing buddies are all to willing to play fast and loose with the lives of millions of people through their militarism, the ratcheting up of regional tensions and the sanctioning of arms deals.&#8221;</p>
<p>And Germans (French too) doing this for quite some time. Where? In Greece.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.hellasfrappe.blogspot.com/2012/11/skaramagas-vaxevanis-points-to-pasok.html" rel="nofollow ugc">http://www.hellasfrappe.blogspot.com/2012/11/skaramagas-vaxevanis-points-to-pasok.html</a><br />
&#8211; How Paying Double For German Subs Helped To Sink Greece<br />
&#8211; EXPOSED &#8211; Classified Documents About Bribery From German Arms Manufacturers To Greek Politicians<br />
&#8211; An Introduction And Analysis Of The Siemens and Ferrostaal Scandals<br />
&#8211; Forgiving Siemens And German Corruption in Greece</p>
<p>Still wondering where is the money that &#8220;lazy&#8221; Greeks squandered? </p>
<p>Thanks to Germany and French, Greek state spend on arms more than anybody in Europe, if I am not mistaken they have more tank than any country (per capita) in Europe. Who they suppose fight with? Turkey of course. </p>
<p>Democracy!?</p>
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		<title>
		By: neretva'43		</title>
		<link>https://www.golemxiv.co.uk/2012/11/greece-democracy-in-the-balance/#comment-22141</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[neretva'43]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Nov 2012 02:51:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.golemxiv.co.uk/?p=1705#comment-22141</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[&quot;What is being tested in Greece is our democracy. Either it is government by the people FOR THE PEOPLE or it is government by technocrats for their wealthy friend. It’s not a complicated choice. Just one that takes courage.&quot;

Sorry, but I always laughing/crying at this type of statements - when someone, who strive to be opinion-maker, is (still) believer in &quot;democracy&quot;. It is like from the textbooks of some ruling party, or from some speech which is coming from Bush or Romney, Obama. It appears that your are believer in &quot;reconstruction&quot; within the system. I am afraid that&#039;s not going to happen.

In same time pedophiles and Lords which asking that retired people should go back to work.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-20044862 are in the top of food chain. So how to reconcile &quot;democracy&quot; with this sociopath? And, is it posible?

In this link:

http://www.newsit.gr/flash/MNHMONIO3

is something what they (Troika = Nazis) call Economic and Financial Policies, sounds innocuous and benign. Going through this, I could see this is just form (legal, if you like)
of rape, i.e. desertification and destitution of people, land, sea, and air of Greece. 

And why I am not surprised? This is something what took place in Eastern Europe more than two decade ago. In Yugoslavia two decade ago, with blood deep to the knees - 100.000 of them in Bosnia alone. This is what is going on now in Syria &quot;they&quot; are trying to &quot;open market&quot; they are bulldozing few countries that left and free of colonialism. Usual pretext is &quot;freedom and human rights&quot; and of course &quot;democracy&quot;.

These are medieval forces not &quot;democracy&quot;. It reminds me on &quot;El Requerimiento&quot; when White man step up in new world.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Requirement_of_1513

&quot;...But if you do not do this, and maliciously make delay in it, I certify to you that, with the help of God, we shall powerfully enter into your country, and shall make war against you in all ways and manners that we can, and shall subject you to the yoke and obedience of the Church and of their highnesses; we shall take you, and your wives, and your children, and shall make slaves of them, and as such shall sell and dispose of them as their highnesses may command; and we shall take away your goods, and shall do you all the mischief and damage that we can, as to vassals who do not obey, and refuse to receive their lord, and resist and contradict him: and we protest that the deaths and losses which shall accrue from this are your fault, and not that of their highnesses, or ours, nor of these cavaliers who come with us.&quot;]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;What is being tested in Greece is our democracy. Either it is government by the people FOR THE PEOPLE or it is government by technocrats for their wealthy friend. It’s not a complicated choice. Just one that takes courage.&#8221;</p>
<p>Sorry, but I always laughing/crying at this type of statements &#8211; when someone, who strive to be opinion-maker, is (still) believer in &#8220;democracy&#8221;. It is like from the textbooks of some ruling party, or from some speech which is coming from Bush or Romney, Obama. It appears that your are believer in &#8220;reconstruction&#8221; within the system. I am afraid that&#8217;s not going to happen.</p>
<p>In same time pedophiles and Lords which asking that retired people should go back to work.<br />
<a href="http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-20044862" rel="nofollow ugc">http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-20044862</a> are in the top of food chain. So how to reconcile &#8220;democracy&#8221; with this sociopath? And, is it posible?</p>
<p>In this link:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.newsit.gr/flash/MNHMONIO3" rel="nofollow ugc">http://www.newsit.gr/flash/MNHMONIO3</a></p>
<p>is something what they (Troika = Nazis) call Economic and Financial Policies, sounds innocuous and benign. Going through this, I could see this is just form (legal, if you like)<br />
of rape, i.e. desertification and destitution of people, land, sea, and air of Greece. </p>
<p>And why I am not surprised? This is something what took place in Eastern Europe more than two decade ago. In Yugoslavia two decade ago, with blood deep to the knees &#8211; 100.000 of them in Bosnia alone. This is what is going on now in Syria &#8220;they&#8221; are trying to &#8220;open market&#8221; they are bulldozing few countries that left and free of colonialism. Usual pretext is &#8220;freedom and human rights&#8221; and of course &#8220;democracy&#8221;.</p>
<p>These are medieval forces not &#8220;democracy&#8221;. It reminds me on &#8220;El Requerimiento&#8221; when White man step up in new world.</p>
<p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Requirement_of_1513" rel="nofollow ugc">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Requirement_of_1513</a></p>
<p>&#8220;&#8230;But if you do not do this, and maliciously make delay in it, I certify to you that, with the help of God, we shall powerfully enter into your country, and shall make war against you in all ways and manners that we can, and shall subject you to the yoke and obedience of the Church and of their highnesses; we shall take you, and your wives, and your children, and shall make slaves of them, and as such shall sell and dispose of them as their highnesses may command; and we shall take away your goods, and shall do you all the mischief and damage that we can, as to vassals who do not obey, and refuse to receive their lord, and resist and contradict him: and we protest that the deaths and losses which shall accrue from this are your fault, and not that of their highnesses, or ours, nor of these cavaliers who come with us.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>
		By: steviefinn		</title>
		<link>https://www.golemxiv.co.uk/2012/11/greece-democracy-in-the-balance/#comment-22117</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[steviefinn]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Nov 2012 16:41:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.golemxiv.co.uk/?p=1705#comment-22117</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Hmmm.

http://www.keeptalkinggreece.com/2012/11/08/austerity-bill-not-enough-for-bailout-tranche-say-german-finmin-eu-commission/]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hmmm.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.keeptalkinggreece.com/2012/11/08/austerity-bill-not-enough-for-bailout-tranche-say-german-finmin-eu-commission/" rel="nofollow ugc">http://www.keeptalkinggreece.com/2012/11/08/austerity-bill-not-enough-for-bailout-tranche-say-german-finmin-eu-commission/</a></p>
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		<title>
		By: Andrea		</title>
		<link>https://www.golemxiv.co.uk/2012/11/greece-democracy-in-the-balance/#comment-22112</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Andrea]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Nov 2012 14:55:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.golemxiv.co.uk/?p=1705#comment-22112</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Afaik, the Lagarde list is the Hervé Falciani list.  He is in prison in Spain at present.  Switzerland has requested his extradition but it looks like Spain will not comply. He worked for HSBC Geneva, and the list is ONLY from that bank.
 
 http://tinyurl.com/c728qxm

The complete list ended up in the hands of Woerth, Finance Min. of France under Sarkozy.  French computer forensics have shown that the list was tampered with after it was received by Woerth. (Quelle surprise.) - no link, sorry.  It became the Lagarde list when she became F. M.  

In other news (no link sorry, it was a tiny snippet in Le Temps which I can’t copy legally) 70 (or possibly more) of the ppl on the ‘Greek’ list (which is an extract from the whole) are in order with the Greek tax authorities.  This list is known because the Swiss and Greeks send the dossiers to each other, with the agreement of the account holders. 

I very much doubt the Greek list is ‘correct’.  Several ppl in Greece have already objected to their inclusion. (?) 

The list comprised just under 2,000 names.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Afaik, the Lagarde list is the Hervé Falciani list.  He is in prison in Spain at present.  Switzerland has requested his extradition but it looks like Spain will not comply. He worked for HSBC Geneva, and the list is ONLY from that bank.</p>
<p> <a href="http://tinyurl.com/c728qxm" rel="nofollow ugc">http://tinyurl.com/c728qxm</a></p>
<p>The complete list ended up in the hands of Woerth, Finance Min. of France under Sarkozy.  French computer forensics have shown that the list was tampered with after it was received by Woerth. (Quelle surprise.) &#8211; no link, sorry.  It became the Lagarde list when she became F. M.  </p>
<p>In other news (no link sorry, it was a tiny snippet in Le Temps which I can’t copy legally) 70 (or possibly more) of the ppl on the ‘Greek’ list (which is an extract from the whole) are in order with the Greek tax authorities.  This list is known because the Swiss and Greeks send the dossiers to each other, with the agreement of the account holders. </p>
<p>I very much doubt the Greek list is ‘correct’.  Several ppl in Greece have already objected to their inclusion. (?) </p>
<p>The list comprised just under 2,000 names.</p>
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