Just thought I’d let you all know I was asked some pointed and worth while questions by a reader called Tomorrin. I have belatedly replied and thought some of you might find his questions worth a look. I hope my answers help also.
You can find it at
http://golemxiv-credo.blogspot.com/2010/10/who-are-bond-holders-we-are-bailing-out.html
At last! A reaction!
I'm impressed by the civility of the hostility and hope Tomorrin keeps in touch.
Talking about dissent amongst the followers, I would imagine many will have seen the Channel-4 programme last night regarding the UK national debt and how it vastly exceeds the bank bailout.
Which is the biggest threat to the future of our children – Government spending or the antics of financial institutions?
For now (one day only folks!), I'm more concerned about the imbalance between the private and public sectors than what the banks are up to; however, perhaps this is a rather parochial view.
Yes sorry it took so long Rich.
On the banks and public sector. No one, me included is trying to say we don't have very large and serious public finance problems. I made a film back in 2002 which said our pension system is broke, you will NOT retire at 65 or even 67 and we had better fix this NOW. Of course no government, neither left nor right, wanted to know.
So I am very much agreed that public finances are in a mess and have been MADE that way be pusilanimous polticians of every colour.
Given that we have huge and pressing public financial problems WHY then, have we diverted all the money and borrowing capacity to save the banks?
Our politicians have diverted teh money we should be using to deal with e pressing problem which is ours to deal with, to pay for debts that were never ours to deal with?
The politicians ignored the problem letting it grow and fester and then robbed us of any hope of dealing wqith it. WHY? At whose behest?
Now we are told – oh the public finances are beyond hope, burn the lot down. They are beyond hope if we continue to give all the money to the bankers.
I could rant on I am so angry about it. Luckily I have to go get the children from school.
Always good to hear from you RIch. Thanks.
I received the book today. Pictures would've been nice or a pop-up section.
Seriously though it's crisp looking and i love the way you can open it up on any page and out pop interesting sentences full of passion.
I watched the C4 programme and was stunned at the what some people said, the chancellor from the 80's saying it's sooo bad now, but the 80's figures run through an inflation calculator aren't that different.
If there are 7 million public workers and only 2 million are Nurses, Doctors what do the other 5 million do?
I'm a steel fabricator and actually make useful stuff like schools, bridges, hospitals but yet I pay for people to push paper and there are more of them than me!? That can't be correct surely?
Politions (also 'fabricators') are like the mafia, they'll do the most heinous crimes to get 'made' or ahead of the game and everybody else can get F'd.
Personally i think masterminding this crisis just so you can sell a book is well out of order.
Is there a Mini G like in Austin Powers?
I haven't seen the C4 doc yet – I've been working up to it. From the trails I've seen it looks like the worst kind of Washington consensus propaganda aimed at quelling resistance to the austerity drive by trotting out a bunch of cute kids. One fo the talking heaads in the advert even mentions a flat rate of tax if i remeber correctly.
But you guys don't seem to be foaming at the mouth so maybe i'm wrong?
Anyway, not watching it tonight – it's Friday. I'm off to see a nice Mike Leigh film.
Nice retort to Tomorrin. It didn't seem like he had much of an argument, instead just trying to invalidate your assertions with smoke & mirrors. Whichever way you look at it, it's difficult to conclude anything other than what you've presented about the bondholders.
'Propaganda' seems to be one of those words, like 'socialist,' that people use w/o knowing what they mean, assuming that everyone knows it just connotes 'evil.'
Jamie,
I feel the same as you. I think you describe exactly what it was and what it was for. People just haven't started to think about this. Most won't. Al the more imperative that some of us try to think clearly and argue our case.
Dope,
Thanks. Propaganda is one of those words that follows me around. Bsically it seems to mean any point of view that isn't considered acceptable.
There were some good parts on the programme, like the bail out only cost 68 billion and we'll get that back. A dude from the Adam Smith institute had some jems too.
Regardless of that though the 7 million workers and only 2 million actual workers is not far off if you exclude the war machine. So when the cuts come, if one frontline service gets trashed (from nurse to gardener) you really have to ask what are they doing with my hard earned cash?
I think you need more Tom's and f's as the more they question and the more you answer the stronger your argument becomes.
24K said…I think you need more Tom's and f's as the more they question and the more you answer the stronger your argument becomes.
I tend to agree with you here 24K…….I'm also curious to find out how Tomorrin's argument develops too!
I watched five minutes at about 9:30 and could see I hadn't missed much and switched off.
I'm impressed that 24K hasn't a clue what the public sector does yet is convinced his own place in society is worthy. I'm glad you make useful stuff for the public sector but how efficient are you? How much waste is in your product? How lean is your manufacturing process? It's very likely as with most manufacturers that you haven't a clue and I'm sure you're pleased that your waste is paid for by central government through wasted cash in contracts.
I depend on the private sector and couldn't live without it and yet this easy target called the public sector takes a bashing and people ask what do they do? Sadly most haven't a clue what the public sector is and what it does for every person from the day they are born.
And yes I am a proud public sector worker in central government.
@Bravebart
There's no denying that the public sector is a vital part of this nation's well-being, and the private sector would quickly cease to function without emergency services, insurance brokers, trade delegations, etc.
People who bash the public sector clumsily (or conveniently) forget that they are talking about real people and their job security.
But there is a fundamental problem: the taxation of the private sector is not sufficient to support the public sector in its present form. Therefore, some of those public sector workers need to be become net wealth creators.
However, this is not accomplished by sacking public workers and lying about how the private sector will come to the rescue. The onerous taxation – that required to support government spending – dissuades the private sector from taking on more employees. A vicious circle has developed, one that I'm keenly aware of when employment agencies try to coax me to employ more people.
I don't know what the solution is, but one thing that does worry me is that public services performed in exchange for employment benefit is just one small step away from setting up poorhouses.
Sorry 24K. I belatedly realised that I accused you of being a public sector basher, which may not be true?
Do I detect another song in the making?
Steel fabrication, wealth creation for the nation. Bridge formation needs education, etc.
Yes, I know. The muses treat me with contempt. I'll get back to some wealth creation.
Come on 24K,
I think you're being a little uncharitable. The public sector does a very fine job of most of what it does. You should try living in a country where you pay for medicine privately and you'd understand what a weight of worry the NHS protects you from every day without you even knowing.
And the NHS would not run if it were only the doctors and nurses. There has to be someone who buys the dissinfectant and arranges for it to arrive where it is needed. There has to be someone who makes sure that people get paid and their taxes witheld.
There have to be tax collectors. There have to be people who do the paperwork . None of those are front line but they do a necessary job.
ON THE OTHER HAND, I cannot pretend that I don't feel that managers and all those whose job is to look over our shoulders and assess targets and insist on time sheets being filled out to account for every 15 minutes of my day – that those people are a fungal growth.
What went wrong in this country is that somewhere along the line those at the top decided no one could be trusted. Everyone had to be suspected and monitored, assessed and required to re-apply for their job.
Except of course those who administered this system of suspicion. Those people, the mealy minded snoopers and target police, they bloomed like the fungus they are.
They are the people no one likes. But they are not 'the public sector' nor managers in general.
I hate the culture of targets and mistrust. But let's not write off eveyone who does the unglamorous as a parasite. There are parasites among them exactly as there are feckless, drunken, ignorant racist shit heads among the ranks of the unemployed. I know this because I sat next to them when I was unemployed. Just as I sufferd the snoopers and petty paper pushing Nazis.
The greatest danger we face today, is falling in to the trap of accepting the easy targets for hatred and blame conveniently offered to us by those who are the real culprits. The bankers woud like nothing better than if we can be set against teach other. That would provide their sport while they rob us.
We MUST stick together in this. The vat inspector MUST find common cause with the steel worlker because both are going to find themselves paying for this gigantic folly. Allow yourselves to be set at each others throats and the wealthy have won.
Rich,
well put. Thanks.
I too hope I have not offended anyone, neither 24K nor Bravebart. If I have, I offer them my apologies.
I like many saw the Ch4 doc.
What I found interesting was they talked to a self made billionaire and many right wing economic guru's. Not once did I see a comment from those at the bottom of the pile. Because I would hardly call Alistair Darling (sole contributor from the left) someone who understands the what its like to be at the bottom of the economic miracle of Hong Kong.
I'm not knocking the message of the doc. There's some serious issued raised and need to be addressed. But I would like to see a more balanced approach. Not the talk about the massive deficit (cue scary music) Talk about economic Hong Kong miracle (cue soothing, uplifting music). Which gave it a sort of amateur feel.
Hi Golem
Have you seen the article about crashing JP Morgan? See here.
Seems too good to be true? Surely it can't be as simple as that? If there is a grain of truth in it then I'll be obtaining my little 100g bar of silver bullion, not because I'm reckless or vindictive, but because this is great way of protesting.
Hello Rich,
yes I saw it and like you I am very sorely tempted. Wouldn't it be so very sweet!
You are correct Braveheart i haven't got a clue, I am no statistitian.
I feel like I'm digging a hole here.
I watched a programme a year ago about this guy that thinks people can work without all the managers. One example was a council garage with 8 or so mechanics and 5 office staff peering down banning radios etc etc. The mechanics decided to move four of the office staff to other jobs out of the garage and kept one, the mechanics filled their own paperwork out, reinstated the radio and gave council workers M.O.T.s to bring in more cash and had control of their own budget. Interestingly the binmen who worked job and knock had no interest in the idea of doing more work themselves!
The NPIA all sat about in their cosy offices and figured out if they sacked 46,000 police and had a mix of volunteers they could save 500 million a year. Great!
Yet the NPIA cost 500 million a year to run? Is that exceptable?
I have relatives and friends who have public sector jobs and none of them caused public debt to double in two years. An interesting point though is that it doubled i.e. half of it was already there.
But that's just about free trade isn't it? As productive jobs left the country the public sector grew to accomodate the people who could no longer find productive jobs as they had gone to more profitable countries, profit for the globalists that is and the politions in their pockets.
I don't think anybody deserves to get sacked thanks to the Unholy Warriors (Rich that's the second time you have bust a rhyme, i think that's a sign that we'll karaoke sometime!)
And i don't mean to point a finger and say it's your fault as it's not. The fault lies clearly at the feet of the so called sheperds that should be taking care of our country rather than USING the country.
That's a wolf not a sheperd.
Maybe i should have thought about what i wrote more and i thank you for pointing it out to me.
I don't mean to offend and I'm in no way offended by anybody, these are just words my brain spat out. Please forgive my ramblings, unless you work for the NPIA of course.
Been thinking about you today 24K,
Glad you're here.
We're all digging holes. At least we're digging this one together.
People can mange themselves. It's the great NuManagement lie that everyone has to be overseen and threatened in order to get any improvement.
What we need is trust. We have forgotten how to trust and that we can trust each other.
When we start top put our truast back in those we personally judge to be trustworthy, and do away with teh vulture of suspicion and tick-box buck passing, then we will start to rebuild this country.
No offence taken, but 24K why quote a figure for running a part of government that you probably know nothing about?
Why is it acceptable for services to be cut and then expect the gap to be plugged by volunteers? Either the job is there or it isn't. Would the private sector do it for free? I don't think so.
Government isn't cheap. My department spends vast amounts of your tax delivering a service the public expect. It's expensive because we pay vast sums to consultants and contractors delivering our product that expect profit. This can't be avoided. We can account for every pound spent. We don't make a profit we simply deliver a service the public expect.
I work in the public sector too. Last Christmas I met up with some mates for a few beers and a natter; and it struck us that not only were the four of us all working in the public sector but our wives/partners were too, (local govt, Whitehall, higher education, NHS & schools). So eventually the talk wound round to a discussion of what the level of admin staff our respective organisations would be before there was any noticable drop in service. I was the lowest with 33%.
This article resonated strongly with my experience, especially these phrases,
"…overpopulated with highly intelligent people who can't do simple, menial tasks, simply or menially'. It was also full of fiercely risk-averse people 'because no civil servant ever got fired for doing nothing. They get fired for doing something."
and
"I have never met such bright people who really care about what they are doing but they are working in a machine with a set of customs, cultures, values and practices that are utterly antiquated. A lot of the time the process is more important than the outcome."
The size of the public sector is well north of 6 million, I just don't see how how as a nation we could sustain that many employees paid out of taxation (not to mention their pensions), even without the current crisis.
Any talk of the private sector being able to pick up the slack in the short term is nonsense however. But maybe, just maybe if we didn't keep letting our jobs disappear overseas, we'd have something to build an economy back up with.
Perhaps Golem has a thing or two to say about how much the country can afford in pension terms. The fact is people are going to need a pension. The private sector can pat themselves on the back for screwing their employees out of such perks and giving the cash to shareholders but we will all pay eventually for the pension time bomb eventually out of taxation. Their benefits may not be as good as the civil service, which I admit are too generous, but we will all pay.
The civil service operates with constraints the private sector has no concept yet is flexible enough to change and adapt to a ministerial or governmetal drop of a hat in policy change.
Anyway Golem, I reckon this blog has lost its way a bit, but still interesting.
Bravebart i quoted the figure mostly because I'm stupid and if you've read some of my comments,
A crazy fool.
But i had a friend who worked in the council. Due to restructuring one person was no longer required. Instead of him finding another job they simply gave the automotive duties of another worker (it took him two hours a day) to him and sorted him out a nice office. So now he does 6 hours of nothing and the other dude does nothing for 2 hours.
One of my relatives is in charge of making fat people thin through innitiatives like exercise days etc, lots of poster making. I'm sure each council has a poster maker. Why the government doesn't tax healthy food less i don't know.
When i saw the figure i just thought of Golgafrinchan's. Do you know any Mr Automotive's? You must be passionate to call me out and I'm glad you did as I was being a bit blase.
Your point about contractors being greedy is a good point. That's how my boss has two bentleys, a Merc Kompressor, and a boat.
Thanks for the ladder Unclear and G blame Rich for talking about telly, and Rich, stop getting me in trouble.
The point about jobs disappearing is the important one, as if there were loads of jobs we could have loads of Mr Automotive, i could be one, a warm office sounds so appealing in the middle of winter with no heating and frozen steel. I don't think they should be cheap labour jobs either. I checked out the Adam Smith institute and they want to scrap minimum wage. China in Britain. 24hr ipod factories for the unemployed living in dormitories, that'll solve it.
Bravebart,
what is it about the blog that makes you feel it has lost its way? I don't want to contribute to the world filling up with unwanted puffery. How was it in the past that you preferred and now find missing in what I write.
Do others feel similarly. Feedback is always welcome.
I would rather stop writing than continue on as an irrelevance.
Golem,
Sorry but I didn't mean the entire blog, just this part on the bondholders and that we've drifted in to all sorts which perhaps isn't relevant to this post.
Keep writing.
Blimey! I thought Golem had started the fusion debate again, then I realised it was my turn to be the mischievous fox in the hen house.
Don't worry Bravebart, these little distractions from the main aims of the blog are rare, but entertaining. It's always interesting to know what people are passionate about.
24K, it's quite a gig. You won't get this much attention very often.
Bravebart, i have noticed my answer to why was a bit flippant. I did not mean this, my brain cannot help using comedy to smother emotions. The emotion in question was shame. Shame of falling for divide and rule, regardless of how valid the points were you are right in the fact it's missing the point which is what i blurt to everybody all the time.
I have this picture in my mind that i'm a small child in one of those plastic cars bumping into things and Rich is my slightly older brother wearing shorts with chocolate all over his face pushing me! (see what i mean about comedy)