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Listening to Brexit

I have been listening to Brexit and it has been unedifying. My lasting impressions is that there was very little actual listening going on. It was largely just an eruption of bile and bigotry.  The British body politic emptying itself from both ends at once. Everyone offended by the actions of the others, seemingly pleased with the smell of their own…opinion.

I should declare my own position. I campaigned to stay in Europe. I spoke at a couple of public meetings. I talked to those who would listen. And over all my impressions is that there was very little listening going on. There was instead a barely restrained hostility. People may not always have shouted over each other. No, no we are far too democratic for that. No, we waited with rictus smiles until the ‘other side’ had paused for breath and then shouted past them. Is shouting past better than shouting over?

Each side seemed uninterested in finding out why the other side felt as they felt. There were plenty of assumptions about what people felt or thought or feared. But no concern to get behind the shouting and try to understand, ‘what is it that you fear?’   Each side seemed keen to paint the other as variously racist, or stupid or right-wing. And of course there were some of all of those.

There were, it is quite true, noisome and emboldened racists and closet Xenophobes who were gleefully paraded and quoted by The Sun and The Guardian alike, though for opposite purposes. On the other hand there has also been, more recently, a revolting fungal efflorescence of  outraged condescension describing the moral and educational deficiencies of those who voted to Leave.

Here is one recent example By Laurie Penny in The New Statesman from 24 June, called “I want my Country Back.” I shall quote from it extensively so that no one thinks I am just picking only the bits that suit me.  Please read the whole thing to assure yourself I am not ‘taking things out of context’.

Laurie Penny begins by describing the vote as a victory of,

…prejudice, propaganda, naked xenophobia and callous fear-mongering have won out over the common sense…

Straight out of the gate, Ms Penny suggests that Remain was guided by ‘common sense’, while Leave and its voters were ruled by prejudice, naked xenophobia or craven fear. They are also, she lets us know , very stupid.

“Well done turkeys. Santa’s on his way.

Apparently the referendum was a painful catastrophe of good people with common sense, being smothered by a mob of stupid people. But what kind of stupid people? Does the author have an inkling where this stupidity lurks? Well, yes she does.

It was a referendum on the modern world, and yesterday the frightened, parochial lizard-brain of Britain voted out,…

The parochial are to blame. So not the urban metropolitans who write for the New Statesmen and live, as she tells us she does, in London? No not them. But parochial people. People who, apparently, are governed by their lizard-brain.  An interesting sentence isn’t it? Those who voted ‘out’ are painting with a metaphor suggesting they are lizard-like. A lower form of life that has not got the higher mammalian ability to care for others.

And this lizard-brained, lack of caring goes along with a selfish concern with their own personal welfare.

Leave voters are finding they care less about immigration now that their pension pots are under threat.

Such unattractive people. And the author is afraid of them. Seems to be keen we should all be frightened of them and their nasty plans for the future.

I’m frightened that those who wanted “their” country back will get their wish, and it will turn out to be a hostile, inhospitable place for immigrants, ethnic minorities, queer people…

Us and them.  Always a good rhetorical move. For someone who seems to want to claim the caring high- ground for herself, as opposed to the lizard-brained lower forms of ‘them’, she seems quite quick to resort to ‘them and us’. No room here for different reasons, different thinking, different world views. The author seems above all to want to control how we see the debate. She wants to have her description of who ‘us’ and ‘them’ are, what ‘we’ and ‘they’ are like, what ‘they’ think, why ‘they’ think it, and upon what nasty grounds ‘they’ decided. And that is what bothers me most.

This article is not simply a lament from one side of an argument. It is a thinly veiled exercise in condescending bigotry. The bigot’s eye view of all those who she lumps together in her glib and condescending description of parochial, lizard-brained, stupid people who are full of fear and empty of concern except for their pensions. In short, craven stupid lumpenproles.

But enough about them. What about her?

But the thing is – I want my country back too….I want to wake up tomorrow in a country where people are kind, and tolerant, and decent to one another.

Which the Leave people don’t want? She doesn’t say that. That would be inelegant. No she simply sets up the dichotomy. Her readers can fill in the rest in private.

I want to go back to a Britain where hope conquers hate; where crabbed, cowed racism and xenophobia don’t win the day; where people feel they have options and choices in life….

Just a little reminder of the Leavers and the country they are arranging for us – hate-filled, crabbed, cowed racist and xenophobic.  Yes. Let those Leavers get in charge and this is what we’ll all get. Unlike the future if we let the author and her friends in Remain be in charge – which will be one where we all have options and choices.

Options and choices.  I have heard those words before. To me they smell of Blaire and Cameron and the debt -fuelled fictions of the last thirty years of Thatcher and sons.

That country, of course, is fictional.

No! Really?

But it’s no less so than the biscuit-tin, curtain-twitching, tea-on-the-lawn-with-your-white-friends-from-the-Rotary-Club fantasy Britain the other side have been plugging for years,..

Ah, so the lizard brained cowards are allied with White, small-town Tories?  I think this is a reference to John Major’s cricket playing idyll.  So our choices according to Ms Penny is a ‘Remain’ Britain filed with options and choices or a ‘Leave’ Britain, which is some pastiche of small town suburban and rural England where stupid working class people vote like turkeys for tea-on-the-lawn- white people.  I think Ms Penny might need to get out of London a little more often and widely.

But Ms Penny is not stupid. She does eventually get round to something approximating an insight.

This was not just a vote against Europe, but a vote against Westminster and the entirety of mainstream politics. Every political party campaigned hard for a “Remain” vote – but Britain still chose to Leave, even if we’re regretting it this morning.

Now surely there is a realisation there, at odds with all that preceded it. A glimmer of understanding beyond the rhetoric and generalisations. Perhaps there were some ‘leave’ voters who voted because, on balance, they thought doing so would do more to shake the hegemonic certainties of neoliberal globalism that all the major parties surrendered to a generation ago? All the same parties that were then arguing for Remain. They could of course be wrong. But they would have voted for very different reason to those Ms Penny was so quick and so confident to ascribe to them.

But she just can’t seem to imagine the ‘Leave’ voters could be so thoughtful. No ‘thoughtful’ is something she seems to want to reserve for ‘Remain’ people. ‘Leave’ get to be turkeys and cowards.  ‘Leave’ are not to be accorded such thoughtfulness, because they live in places – and lets cut to the chase – they live in the North – I mean, don’t they! Or at least not in places where lovely people have options and choices. And, from the description below, they are evidently working class and quite possibly old! Ugh!

There are huge areas of post-industrial decline and neglect where people are more furious than Cameron and his ilk could possibly understand, areas where any kind of antiestablishment rabble-rousing sounds like a clarion call. In depressed mountain villages and knackered seaside towns and burned-out former factory heartlands across the country, ordinary people were promised that for once, their vote would matter, that they could give the powers that be a poke in the eye.

Yes! Now we’re getting to it. They’re just a rabble. A rabble roused from their depressed, knackered, burned out lives in sea-side towns, former factory heart lands (that’s London chattering class code for the midlands and north).  Yep. The chattering class, when they get together and do democracy, they do it with panache and style. When the rest of us do it we’re just a knackered, depressed rabble.

I was born in London. Perhaps the city can secede.

I am sure this was said with a degree of flippancy. But to the knackered rabble of the north it sounds like a glimpse of a true desire. A little hint of the real us and them.

And then finally we get to some hint of analysis. And how thread-bare it is.

British people are used to being lied to by incompetent spivs in the name of “protecting the economy”.

Unarguably true so far.

Unfortunately, this time the spivs were dead right….more damage has already been done to our economy, to our prospects and to the job market than years of open borders ever could have.

Said with such breath-taking brevity of thought. Whose economy?  The question so rarely asked.  The stocks and shares economy?  That economy that the rest of us keep bailing out and paying for with austerity? That economy?  The broken and dysfunctional economy? The economy of ‘choices’ based mostly on debt.

Is it not an ‘option’ to wish to deal such an undead monster a blow? Why so certain that the spivs are right?  I happen to think the spivs are wrong. And I say that not because I am a depressed, craven xenophobe, but because I have thought about it.

Don’t get me wrong. Remember I argued for Remain. But I dislike the bigoted generalizations and crude stereotyping of the Leave voters. I met some of them and some of them were thoughtful and considered, decent people. Who voted according to a logic which Ms Penny is either ignorant of or finds inconvenient to admit exists.

I agree with the author when she says,

…the Conservatives have spent six years systematically defunding the health service and cutting public spending to the bone. Brexit will mean more of that, not less.

When I spoke for Remain I suggested it was not simply about what people wanted to leave, but that they should think hard about what they would be left with. In this case, as Laurie Penny says, the choice they made has delivered us all to a Tory government that can hope to do as it wants free of any restrain at all. I agree with this. I think we are now facing the battle our times. The fight for democracy itself. But all this vote has done is bring the battle nearer.  It was upon us anyway. The outlines of the fight are perhaps less easy to ignore that’s all.

And this battle, THE battle of our time, will require a courage and a faith in each other that we are squandering with every word of this bilious brexit name-calling.  Just because the vote went against what I felt was better, what Ms Penny is certain is better, does not mean, as she concludes,  that this nation must somehow re-find the,

…capacity for tolerance, a new resilience, a way to recover ourselves and remember our common humanity.

I personally resent the implication that simply because the vote did not go as she decided it must, that somehow common humanity is endangered. Common humanity is not the exclusive preserve of ‘Remain’ voters.

If you can bare it one last time.

I want my country back. I want my scrappy, tolerant, forward-thinking, creative country,

I am all these things. So are my friends. We are all still here. Living in the North. Some of us are even working class!

…the country of David Bowie, not Paul Daniels; the country of Sadiq Khan, not Boris Johnson; the country of J K Rowling, not Enid Blyton; the country not of Nigel Farage, but Jo Cox.

Let me just get this out.  You do not have to like Paul Daniels if you don’t like David Bowie. Ms Penny should refrain from endlessly deciding what the range of choices are and what you must be like if you’re not like her.  I don’t particularly like either Sadiq Khan or Boris Johnson. And I wouldn’t chose to read either JK Rowling or Enid Blyton.  I have completely other tastes, other concerns, other ideas. Ms Penny might not realise it but there are other world views not defined by her narrow views.

Britain, like everywhere else, has always had its cringing, fearful side, its cruel delusions, its racist fringe movements, its demagogues preying on the dispossessed.

True. It has also had its condescending, sanctimonious, holier-than-thou, leave-it-to-your-betters pundits who get themselves in a terrible state whenever they think the great unwashed, working-class are in danger of interfering in a decision their self-declared social betters feel should definitely be left to them.

I am sure Ms Penny is well-intentioned and essentially good-hearted. The problem is, at least in this article, she comes across as feeling she, and those in her in-group, are the only ones who are. Her article reeks of the assumption that  ‘Remainers’ are well intentioned, whereas “leavers’ are either malign or simply stupid, selfish and craven.

I think we would do well to remind ourselves that not every “remain’ voter thinks as Ms Penny’s does. And not every ‘Leave’ voter is as her stereotype. There are people who thought there was no good choice in this referendum. People who thought remaining in a Europe that is being corrupted by corporate lackeys is only marginally better than a Uk that is already very definitely corrupted by corporate lackeys. People who thought all the arguments over lost sovereignty were misdirection, distracting people from the fact that far more of our sovereignty will begin away by signing the CETA, TTIP and TISA trade deals than was ever given to Europe.

None of our problems were on the ballot. None would have been addressed let alone solved by the referendum no matter which way it was decided.

All our battles are still before us. The real question, perhaps the only question, is whether we descend into the spite-filled bigotry of ‘Us and Them’ or chose to actually listen to and understand the realities of each others lives and fears. And in so doing re-find all the things that people tell us we have lost.



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209 Responses to Listening to Brexit

  1. Spartacus Rex July 9, 2016 at 7:55 pm #

    “I campaigned to stay in Europe”

    The “EU” and Europe are Not one & the same.
    Leaving the EU, does not mean leaving Europe.
    Anyone ask themselves how’s that “EU”
    working out for Greece, Spain, Italy, Portugal?
    The Euro as a currency, is so fatally flawed
    it is a tragedy coming down the pike,
    that many will rue for generations.
    Neither Norway or Switzerland joined the “EU”
    Have either of those two Countries EVER suffered
    because of their not joining the “EU”?
    France is a basket case.
    Anyone care to argue otherwise?

    “A nation that cannot control its borders is not a nation” Ronald Reagan

    Anyone who prefers to be ruled/dictated to by an unaccountable Elite in Brussels,
    the solution is simple move to Belgium.

    Great Britain had plenty of bilateral trade agreements prior to the EU Trojan Horse
    and will likely have same again, which will undoubtedly benefit GB, not merely the Corporate Globalists via TTIP etc.

    S. Rex

    • Golem XIV July 9, 2016 at 8:25 pm #

      I agree Europe is not the same as the EU. I perhaps should have used EU not Europe but felt in contact people would know what I meant. If it caused confusion then I apologise.

      I never argued anywhere the the EU as it is now, was good. I was rather careful about that. At best I would say that it did, in some areas of policy, in a certain era, do some good things.

      As for you feeling that the Trade agreements will benefit GB – I have no idea what you mean by GB. They will benefit some certainly. If do not think they will benefit most. We will have to agree to disagree.

    • Gui July 11, 2016 at 12:47 am #

      “move to Belgium”….or, if you like warmer weather, move to Greece.

  2. steviefinn July 9, 2016 at 11:33 pm #

    Thank you for that – Reading it I was somehow reminded of a Rutger Hauer line from ” Blade Runner ” :

    ” Quite an experience to live in fear, isn’t it ? “

  3. Patrica July 10, 2016 at 1:59 am #

    In my view, from New Zealand – if that means anything – I cannot see why there is so much angst over Brexit. The EU, which has done nothing for its members, only has 26 Countries in it and that is not the World which is a much bigger place to trade with. That is if trade is the only measure of success. I see England as now having the opportunity to actually do something for the common good. It could copy the Scandinavian countries and improve on those. But as I see it you need to get rid of the old Parties and start afresh. Somebody needs to start a new party with new policies especially economic policies. What a wonderful opportunity you have.

    • Golem XIV July 10, 2016 at 9:52 am #

      I agree. For my part I am trying to argue for a more radical agenda within the Green Party. But longer term I think the Edwardian parties we currently have are all reaching the end of their lives. Labour will go first, I feel sure. Less than 5 years. Depending on what happens over Corbyn it could be measured in months even.

      The divisions of left and right are no longer the only important ones. The choice which people care about now, which parties must address is neoliberal free trade globalism or not. And if not, we have to establish what the alternative is. We cannot allow globalist to define what the alternative is. They will insist the alternative is ‘protectionism’ and xenophobia.

      We must control the vocabulary not them.

      • Patrica July 11, 2016 at 12:28 am #

        This business of exenophobia or racism is such a difficult one. Often, I think it is cultural issues that are the problem and especially when they relate or are perceived to relate to money and jobs. There is a lot of racism here with house prices that mean having a home is becoming out of reach for most young new Zealanders. Houses here are being bought by a lot of foreigners for an investment. Foreigners are then starting up businesses and following their own business principles not ours. Non compliance to labour laws, health laws etc. You have to have a large number of inspectors to stop all of that and in a free market, no government interference world that just doesn’t happen. I believe if something isn’t done to control immigration in such a way that both immigrant and the local people benefit then what happened to our Maori people will happen to us. Government is supposed to be represent the people and work for the people not vested interests as it does now.

        • Gui July 11, 2016 at 1:29 am #

          the globalist/house price agenda is everywhere, from NZ to UK. Generally it is propped up by over 50’s generation who favour protecting their interests by buying 2+ houses – and they don’t appear to care that their investments are causing inequality. They are also what Peter Hitchens refers to as “bourgeois bohemians” taking advantage of cheap migrant labour to support city lifestyles.

          Brexit was a vote against this?

          Remainers it seems, and Penney’s article affirms this, consider leavers to be racist. But I know a lot of over 50’s remainers and I perceive their social circles do not extend very far – plus their investments encourage inequality and family breakdown. Who are the racists?

          See these two 3 minute Vice films on how young Brits chose to vote:



          My opinion, based on these nonpartisan films, is that the leavers have made a more considered, confident and rational decision.

          I hope that Brexit is not what zerohedge refers to this morning as “Orwells vision coming true”, that would be too depressing.

          The role of urban design in ancient Greece was to encourage people to debate current issues in public places – a healthy debate which seeks to inform and question. Brexit is a result of years of silence leading to irreconcilable differences? If so, (I hope that) Brexit marks the beginning of a new era of healthy discourse.

      • redracam July 11, 2016 at 7:10 am #

        I agree that it must be the ordinary people who set the stage and decor of a new democracy – it cannot be left to vested interest or to the fear driven shooting in the foot lobby.
        However, this movement of mass seems to have already started with 500,000 people joining the Labour Party and demanding J. Corbyn to enact their wishes. How ironic, if MPs having disenfranchised their electorate by largely ignoring them, would short circuit the greatest political mass movement in UK history by bringing to an end the Labour Party (as you seem to suggest).
        “What is a socialist?” seems neither here nor there in this context. Certainly, Michael Foot or Tony Benn would have difficulty recognizing as comrades the 170 odd Labour MPs that voted against J. Corbyn.
        May I humbly suggest that you join the Labour Party – because that is where “the people” are – and usher in a new brand of Green / new democratic / long term visionary thought that you clearly espouse.
        Who does a political party belong to? What is the goal of a political party?
        Questions that the 500,000 have turned on their head.

  4. Foppe July 10, 2016 at 7:54 am #

    The Britain she wants back is simply the one in which highly educated (young) professionals can walk about feeling like they own the place, that everything is there for them to use it (since they/if you have money), and in which austerity is just something ‘unpleasant’ that happens to other people, without their seeing the consequences; and if they do, they blame it on ‘the nasty party’.

    I must say that I am surprised that she wrote this, though. From articles she wrote a few years ago, when I read her, I got the impression she was at least mildly aware of the relationship between choices of political economy and social outcomes, and that the socio/political/economic developments of the past 30-odd years were in fact *not* ‘necessary consequences of globalization’ (as many of my ‘professional’ friends are wont to think. Maybe I was still in my naive phase back then? In any case, I have found it quite surprising to see how many of those friends reflexively believe in the EU as the ‘modern’ thing — mostly because of the freedom of movement clause — and anyone who was ‘for’ leave as parochial or bigoted.

    As to stay/leave: If I had been a Brit, I would’ve found the choice quite difficult, since I don’t see the rulership of the EU change it’s ideological wings any time soon, given that they’re being drawn from a near-infinite pool, and I disfavor the EUs treatment of the periphery in the Eurozone crisis quite strongly. I am not sure how to balance that against the goods that the EU has arguably done in terms of steering South/East-European countries towards — procedural — democracy. (And yes, I am well aware that EU and Eurozone are distinct entities.)

    • Old Smeg July 10, 2016 at 11:18 pm #

      Err … where exactly was Democracy invented, then … ?

      Somewhere in South Europe, if I remember . . .


      • Foppe July 13, 2016 at 8:56 pm #

        I’m not sure I follow. I am talking about the history of South/Eastern Europe since ww2, in which dictators/juntas were a frequent issue.

        • Old Smeg July 16, 2016 at 4:14 pm #

          Just lifting the mood . . .

    • penny bloater August 3, 2016 at 2:40 pm #

      Brilliant comment.

      Indeed. The ‘soft left’ and metropolitan elites in politics and the media are living under some mass delusion that the last 15 years just didn’t happen at all.

      The rise of a technocratic, managerial elite in the party has, until recently, hollowed out any semblance of accountability and grass roots support since the rise of ‘third way’ politics.

      The public now show disgust for this type of self-entitled, undemocratic ‘time-server MP’ who thinks everyone else owes them a living and they have a job-for-life.

      Last month, a mass movement with one MP forced the most important political decision made in Britain for the last seventy years – ordinary people in the provinces outside the relative comfort of globally connected metropolitan cities bit back and gave the elites a long-overdue and well-deserved kicking.

      There’s a wind of change about and everywhere….

  5. roger July 10, 2016 at 9:33 am #

    I am doing some work on this internet traffic analysis done by John Swain a data scientist,https://medium.com/@swainjo/brexit-remain-v-leave-pr-on-twitter-f502c94bae1f#.5gxxnex8r the map shows nodes of heavier traffic between media outlets and key figures in the campaigns, it is possible to see visually who was most effective in leveraging their Message through networking to media outlets.

    I am looking to contrast The study by Prof John Robinson of the Scots indie referendum https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ajd4R-9BEIw Which caused quite a stir when it was released.

    To me it seems clear that the establishment wished to remain in the EU and the Establishment wished to preserve the Union with Scotland . the post result coverage and fallout following Brexit will be an interesting thing to analyse and perhaps I will get time to look at the media coverage post the Irish Danish and French referenda that went against the wishes of the Establishment.

    The Media is a powerful tool we all of us who fetch up at Blogs like this one have probably cottoned on to how subtly it directs thoughts in common currency. The Greek experience post their Austerity referendum will tell us quite a lot and Obamas continued interjections are telling to me as is the CIA accent detectable in much of the Meme posting in social media. Professional trolls exist, that is an easily verifiable fact, for recent examples of state of the art political trolling just search Hilary Clintons paid trolls and you can see how a false mood can be induced into main stream media which is very different to the experiences we all have as individuals. Its a variation on Hans Christian Andersons The Emperors New clothes.

    I think Davids piece here does apply to the General case from the particular slant in the New Statesman piece he analyses.

    David covers the wider case in Re-Branding Dissent.
    Choose wisely

    ‘Choose wisely’ is a good first step in neutering democracy. It is easy to sell, appears wise, benevolent even, and who could advocate the opposite? But being admonished to ‘choose wisely’ is quite different to being forced to do so by having ‘experts’ pre-choose your range of choices for you and having your representatives forced to follow the pre-narrowed ‘wise’ choice or choices handed to them by paid-for lobbyists and seconded experts. However I think the Over Class knows ‘Choose wisely’ and Professionalized Governance are not going to be enough on their own – given the scale of unpleasantness which will have to be imposed and maintained on voters if the current structures of power and privilege are to be maintained.´´

    For the Considered case for Brexit I like this movie Lexit the movie it is highly preferable to Brexit the movie which figures in John Swains maps if you look at them.

    • Golem XIV July 10, 2016 at 9:43 am #

      Hello Roger,
      I will be fascinated to her any conclusions you draw from your analysis. Please let us know here if you care to.

    • Phil July 10, 2016 at 4:22 pm #

      Some great insights. Thanks Roger.

    • Phil July 10, 2016 at 4:29 pm #

      What do you think the CIA accent sounds like?

      • roger July 11, 2016 at 7:21 am #

        Hi Phil there are a couple of links in the comments above to Vice an online video magazine. It has a distinctly CIA accent and has been prominent in social Media propaganda vis Russian ´ Aggression´in Ukraine . Vice is but one example of a kind of subtle media that by following the ordering and psychological prioritisation described by John Robinson in his Scots indie referendum research seek to steer the debate. There are two types of Agency active at the boundaries we are mediated to stay within. These two agencies are Gatekeepers and controlled opposition both sides are very effective of employing useful idiots to do their bidding Phil. Vice were the people who delivered the stick up video of Jeremy Corbyn, this is what prompted me to dig a little deeper, other agencies are organisations like Amnesty, War on Want who do some good work but essentially are Establishment gatekeepers or controlled opposition at their best. https://wikispooks.com/wiki/Interpretermag
        Anyone who thinks the Maiden type of CIA operation or the Brolly´s in HongKong, the Impeachment of Rouseff in Brazil, attempted venezeulan coups. ( I found the Allende in Chile comments in one of Davids Argentina pieces from a few years back interesting( I was re reading them the other day and linked to one of the pieces) given the Brazilian events of recent weeks).

        We often refer to Balkanisation regarding geo politics in the European sphere and also the Near Middle East, actually one could say these days we are entering a sort of extended Monroe Doctorine where US meddling goes back a long way and is a very dirty tale indeed. The CIA set up the European Union after WWII ample official evidence is available should you wish to read it, if you wish to but do not have time to find it let me know if you would like some links to reliable sources.

        The CIA accent is further compounded for me with the US ambassadors interjections and Obamas comments and Kerrys visits recently, I also worry a great deal About FS Hammonds comments regarding containing Russian Aggression.

        I could go on at great length Phil but here is not the place. I think there is a considerable power struggle going on in the various factions of the Oligarchy at present they have various proxy´s through which they wield their respective tactical power bases, Europe and the Middle East , East Coast West Coast USA and have economic as well as symbolic and cultural prizes which are prized as medals in the ´´Great Game´´ these meglomaniacs play.

        • Phil July 11, 2016 at 2:27 pm #

          Thanks very much Roger. Will check all that out with interest.

  6. steviefinn July 10, 2016 at 2:01 pm #

    Meanwhile it appears that the Deutsche bank chief economist wants 150 billion to share with his friends :


    • Golem XIV July 11, 2016 at 10:05 am #

      By September, October at the latest, I think the Italian banks will have to be bailed out by at least that much. The ECB will have to print and accept the very worst bonds as collateral. The German’s will talk about bailing out more feckless southerners but the reason for the bail out will be to protect the German banks who hold the CDS on so much of that debt.

      And here of course lower interest rates. Which we will be told is necessary to ‘help’ the pound. But whose pound will never be questioned. Low interest rates won’t help exporters. They don’t need to borrow they need to sell. They like the low pound. SO why hurt them? The usual reason.

      The banks’ and funds’ pounds – they will be helped by low interest rates. Another temporary emergency measure. Which will be blamed on Brexit. Brexit didn’t cause it. It was just the event that made those who were relying on the endless bail-out and bubble blowing worry that a different agenda might get a look in and the BoE might not be there to catch them.

      But only in the short term. Long and even medium term, lowering interest rates will continue to kill them banks and funds slowly as it has been doing. Because with interest rates low they can’t make any money from lending. WhIch will drive them further and further in to risky assets.

      And finally the low interest rates will attract chinese and other foreign money back and thus re-flate, they hope, the London property market.

      Not one of these things will help the economy the rest of us live in. But the Tories will love it and Labour by and large will just not understand it or feel unable to oppose it.

      Just my tuppence worth.

      • steviefinn July 11, 2016 at 10:36 am #

        I will throw in someone else’s tuppence too – I’m not qualified to judge the merits of the financial savvy in this, but I think it is a wonderful article based on how narratives fail :

        ” There is, to cop a phrase from the People’s Bank of China, a massive “one-way bet” on negative rate sovereign debt today. The momentum trade has crystallized to perfection in negative rate bonds, which has grown to become a $10+ trillion (yes, that’s trillion with a T) asset class. I think it’s the most crowded trade in the world from a behavioral or investment DNA perspective, and the moment you get even a whiff of the ECB or BOJ backing down from or reaching its limit of greater foolishness, you are going to get a rush to the exit on ALL sovereign bonds that will shake global capital markets to their core. It’ll be good times till then, as it always is, and I am seeing zero signs of Central Bankers backing down from their greater foolishness. But we have once again set up the global financial system as an inverted pyramid, with a $10 trillion asset class poised on a single, solitary piece of Common Knowledge —– what everyone knows that everyone knows. In 2008, the $10 trillion asset class of residential mortgage backed securities (RMBS) was entirely based on the Common Knowledge that it was impossible to have a nationwide decline in U.S. home prices. When that Narrative failed, the entire inverted pyramid came crashing down. In 2016, the $10 trillion asset class of negative rate sovereign bonds is entirely based on the Common Knowledge that there is no limit to the greater foolishness of Central Banks. If this Narrative fails, the entire inverted pyramid will come crashing down again. Hence my punchline: monitoring this and related status quo protecting Narratives (like the concerted effort to paint Brexit as a one-off blunder, just like Bear Stearns was painted in 2008) is the only thing that really matters for our investment reality “.


        • Golem XIV July 11, 2016 at 10:56 am #

          Quite right. Hence the ECB will QE and bail by the Autumn. The BoE will resist but may have to and blame it on Brexit.

  7. David Morey July 10, 2016 at 8:25 pm #

    This is worth a read from Paul Mason


    At bottom we need to unite and solve our democracy, debt, housing and income problems, even the majority of the middle classes are exposed to these problems, as Penny has reflected in her writings elsewhere. You can understand how people fear losing their social liberties, but the dangers of social repression will always be difficult to resist unless excess inequality and financial elitism is tackled too. But we must resist the divisions that will make us easy to rule.

    • Old Smeg July 10, 2016 at 11:29 pm #

      >> You can see it on any of the voting maps.
      >> Urban England and all of Scotland voted to Remain.
      >> The poor small towns and cities of England and Wales voted to leave

      So says that shit Mason; clearly he couldn’t see the overall tinge of blue suffusing the map of Britain from Cornwall to Carlisle and beyond.

      I believe this is called Cognitive Dissonance . . .


    • Phil July 10, 2016 at 11:49 pm #

      It isn’t just an economic issue: it’s cultural. And too much of the Left actually supports neoliberal globalisation via its poorly conceived ‘internationalism’.

      • roger July 11, 2016 at 7:33 am #

        Phil Neo liberal Globalisation and The Solidarity of workers through internationalism are very distinct in my own mind and seeing them conflated as you have strikes me as novel. The the Internationale sets out a vision of workers solidarity freed from oppression by revolution and could not be confused with Neo Liberal Gloabalist ideals.

        The International

        Arise ye workers from your slumbers
        Arise ye prisoners of want
        For reason in revolt now thunders
        And at last ends the age of cant.
        Away with all your superstitions
        Servile masses arise, arise
        We’ll change henceforth the old tradition
        And spurn the dust to win the prize.

        So comrades, come rally
        And the last fight let us face
        The Internationale unites the human race.

        No more deluded by reaction
        On tyrants only we’ll make war
        The soldiers too will take strike action
        They’ll break ranks and fight no more
        And if those cannibals keep trying
        To sacrifice us to their pride
        They soon shall hear the bullets flying
        We’ll shoot the generals on our own side.

        No saviour from on high delivers
        No faith have we in prince or peer
        Our own right hand the chains must shiver
        Chains of hatred, greed and fear
        E’er the thieves will out with their booty
        And give to all a happier lot.
        Each at the forge must do their duty
        And we’ll strike while the iron is hot.

        Thomas Paine amongst quite a number of others declared himself a ´Citizen of the World´´this means something much different to a Slave of the New World order or whatever else you want to term USA global Hegenomy.

        • Phil July 11, 2016 at 2:55 pm #

          I think you’re right to illuminate what was internationalism – solidarity between workers in different lands, linking arms across borders. I don’t preclude that some on the Left still understand it in that way. What I’m critiquing I suppose is how that has become mixed up with multiculturalism and / or cosmopolitanism, which are very different things IMO and actually, in my view, perfect for neoliberal globalisation. What in the end does global capital want? No national cultures, no borders… just a global market place. I think too many on the Left collaborate with this – or do not actively resist it – because they think they can invert it to ‘world socialism’ or some such idea. That or they’re just middle class left-liberals who enjoy their cheap foreign nannies and exotic foods.

          I’m open to other views of course but I am really rather sick of how my national culture has been continually traduced. One of the founders of the Dark Mountain project calls it ‘Anglophobia’. I’m not arguing for a return to a mono-cultural society, far from it, but I think more needs to be done to support English / British culture. Left liberals would never deny any other group or nationality taking pride in their culture or identity. Why should they do it with mine?

          • Roger Lewis July 11, 2016 at 3:07 pm #

            I do not know which country you hail from Phil. Generalising about Left or right views is not such an ingrained part of the political furniture in Europe including the UK, that narrative seems to have reached a sort of apotheosis in the US media at least, generally speaking at the level of human social relations in my experience and pretty much most the people I have ever asked do not actually know any stereotypically bigotted or zealous people with no room for pragmatism.
            C S Pierce is one of my favourite Modern Philosophers he is quoted thus in We Pragmatists
            ”In order to reason well …. it is absolutely necessary to possess … such virtues as intellectual honesty and sincerity and a real love of truth (2.82). The cause [of the success of scientific inquirers] has been that the motive which has carried them to the laboratory and the field has been a craving to know how things really were … (1-34). [Genuine inquiry consists I in diligent inquiry into truth for truth’s sake (1.44), … in actually drawing the bow upon truth with intentness in the eye, with energy in the arm (1.235). [When] it is no longer the reasoning which determines what the conclusion shall be, but … the conclusion which determines what the reasoning shall be … this is sham reasoning…. The effect of this shamming is that men come to look upon reasoning as mainly decorative….”

            http://web.ncf.ca/ag659/308/Peirce-Rorty-Haack.pdf ),

          • Phil July 12, 2016 at 1:21 pm #

            I agree with you absolutely about the problem of generalising / stereotyping. Nonetheless, there has been a particular direction of travel on this issue within the Labour party and in the writing of many of the Left’s most prominent commentators: Owen Jones, Paul Mason, Laurie Penny to name just three. I don’t think I’m doing anyone a disservice by saying that.

          • backwardsevolution July 28, 2016 at 9:25 am #

            Thank you, Phil. I agree with you wholeheartedly. Internationalists play right into the hands of the neoliberal globalists.

            As you say, the globalists want no borders, no culture, no patriotism, just a global marketplace, because all that matters to them is that you consume their products.

            Imagine the ease of governing for the globalists if, on the one hand, they have a cohesive cultural group to deal with (who can easily gang up on them and vote them out or demand they change their policies) versus many cultures who never really come together, who never form a cohesive group with which to fight back against elite policies. I think they’d vote for the latter, which is what we’re getting.

            The naive (I would call them) internationalists, all open-armed and loving, cannot see that they are being divided by the globalists. They are running full-speed into their trap. Putting on my elite cap for a moment, I’d much rather have a ton of different groups that cannot form against me because they all want different things. That is what I see happening, and yet others appear blind to this takeover through stupidity.

            Am I making any sense here? Do you understand where I’m coming from? Much easier to get away with murder when you’re governing disparate groups of people who never join together.

  8. David Morey July 10, 2016 at 9:33 pm #

    We need to keep pointing out that these are not trade agreements that are protectionist agreements protecting investments, rents, patents, brands, etc, protecting inequality and the status quo.

    You get the odd technocrat asking some questions, weighing up the threats and issues:


  9. Gui July 11, 2016 at 12:36 am #

    spelling mistake, fyi “I met some of them and some of them were thoughtful and considered, descent people.”

    sorry 2 more: chose x 2

  10. Doug Leighton July 11, 2016 at 12:47 pm #

    A powerful demolition of the underlying attitudes of the author, a sometime Guardian contributor. I also voted for remain but had reservations. I am ambivalent about the Jeremy Corbyn issue.
    On the one hand, having decided ‘remain’ was the less difficult of the two choices, should he have gone hell for leather for a remain vote using all the rhetorical and other political tricks at the disposal of an essentially manipulative political class, and somewhat similar to the emotive language that Laurie Penny uses-language that emphasises division and indices a sense of fear and panic at a potential ‘loss’ of a lifestyle that has suited her. The truth s that Laurie Penny is not the same as the great majority the population. indeed she, as you rightly point out, self identifies with a metropolitan who believe themselves to be ‘uniquely’ (i.e. a group identity) connected to the true movements that define current ideas of modernity.
    Again let us see this in the perspective of Andrea Leadsom, and her potential position of PM and reflect on her economic ‘libertarianism’ and her religiously motivated ‘social conservatism’ and family values. The very fact that she has emerged as a potential leader speaks volumes about the make up of this country.

    Let me return to the Labour party’s travails, which I think is the more interesting matter.

    The charge (by the PLP) of a lack of campaigning enthusiasm on Corbyn’s part- expressing his wel known ambivalence, and the fine divisions of the issue on the nature of the EU, and its direction of travel, is an intrinsically more honest and respectful (of the electorate) outlook.

    Many people will by now have watched the discussion between Yanis Varoufakis and Noam Chomsky, where Varoufakis describes his experiences with the European banking and financial powers and the IMF and the nature of the Troika. One can’t fail to develop real qualms about the nature of these technocratic Tsars- unelected and with near imperial powers to condemn populations to penury and humiliation. (it is worth reflecting that many reports of visitors to Greece are noting the civic and moral collapse that has followed the financial collapse-matters that receive scant attention in our news media and leaving only the often compelling if anecdotal evidence).

    It is interesting to reflect on the current leadership battle going on with those who believe that the Labour campaign should have been more ‘forceful’ and less scrupulous about expressing these reservations about the EU. this seems to me to be more or less in line with the perspective that you so effectively demolish in Laurie Penny.
    The argument between the PLP and the ‘membership’ seems to be about the leadership to make the political compromises that obscures realities from the wider population. Professionalism seems to have absorbed the meaning of obscuring and dissembling in order to propel a position by divisive rhetoric that has been preconceived in some private process and deemed to be ‘the right thing’.

    The Tory party contest is also in sone weird parallel universe, somewhat similar to that of the Labour party. The aloof considered technocratic professionalism of Teresa May , and the ‘open’ common sense ( i.e. simple conventional values, established by long habit) family values, combined with a common sense, simplified, darwinist (natural?) perception of market force economics’.

    The complexity and duplicity of this positioning is revealed by the effectiveness of the technocratic ‘executivism’ of May -more in the manner of Blair’s Iraq affair pragmatism and realpolitik choices.analysis of May’s effectiveness at the Home office reveals that while diligent and clever she did not manage to achieve her avowed political aims with respect to immigration and presided over a monumental administrative fubar in relation to border controls. The same is true of the EU. The technocratic professionalism represented by Mrs Merkel and herTechnocratic Trusties in the Troika, reveal a serious philosophical deficit. How is it possible that a humane response to the problem of Greece-which is condemned to an indefinitely harsh economic position, and the near certain destruction of its cultural values.

    This is confirmed by the acceptance of the position in relation to CETA,TTIP and other trade negotiations where much is obscured.

    Back to the party divisions that are unfolding here.
    Will the labour party revert to the professional class of politicians? Or will it re-affirm its rejection of the cult of ‘leadership’, and the ascendancy of that rather inconvenient messy and wider form of considered consent being promoted by Corbyn.

    The somewhat similar(but also different ) choice in theTory party is for a reversion to native qualities and values, and an unveiling of libertarian economics-with the more or less guaranteed and rapid dismantling of all those established collective activities such as education and health.

    I sense that the die is cast. I have a strong sense that we will see a rejection of the two ‘professional’ elements despite the . Cameron and May are essentially ‘failed’. Blairism has failed.
    It seems inconceivable that this alternatively flavoured, professionalised pragmatist political ethos can be revived in the post chilcott /post brexit world.
    it is interesting also that in demolishing Laurie Penny’s blog/posting, you are aligning yourself, in effect, with Corbyn (and to a certain degree-Leadsom).

    • Golem XIV July 11, 2016 at 1:08 pm #

      I am certainly deeply opposed to any form of technocratic rule.

      Experts are there to advise and offer expertise, not to enforce their views.

      I also believe that culture matters. A country, a nation, is not a territory. It is also a culture. In the Thatcher era it was widely said that There is no such thing as society. Globalism says there should be no such thing as culture. All rules that count, for them, are economic.

      I disagree. For me culture matters.

      • Old Smeg July 11, 2016 at 2:15 pm #

        Now, now children. Do I see polarisation here ? Mr. Malone is being distracted.

        I’m going to surf brutally across the dialogue. I can do this because
        A/. I don’t care about my image, self, perceived, or otherwise.
        B/. I have a radical attitude to communication.
        C/. I don’t have a belief system.

        The two foregoing items represent just another battle of philosophies where the protagonists expound fervently held views. Beliefs, even. Of course, I need to pretend that I respect both sets of views or you will stop reading. The fact is, these are JUST VIEWS. Just another waste of space – because you’re not reaching the consciousnesses of sufficient numbers of people.

        What is the outcome of this exchange of views ? Nothing. No new understanding will arise – without going extensively into the Cognitive thing, you’re just butting heads. This is one of the problems facing ALL of the parties attempting to control the proles – communication.

        >> European banking /financial powers and the IMF and the nature of the Troika.

        Now we’re talking. Terrorism.

        >> aloof considered technocratic professionalism of Teresa May
        >> while diligent and clever she did not manage to achieve her
        >> avowed political aims with respect to immigration

        This is a Minister who was unable to get her Civil Servants to press the right buttons on a computer to tell us how many migrants get Benefits. It has something to do with … errr … National Insurance numbers ? You know – that digital stuff. It doesn’t help that the Shopkeepers and Fishermen are (still, after all the fuckups) so obsessed with everything american that they continually buy US computer systems to run our goverment services.

        >> The technocratic professionalism represented by Mrs Merkel

        It’s time to understand that US Handlers control these Heads of State.

        History lesson: Mad Cow spent a weekend with Reagan and returned to single-handedly wreck the British nation, as Reagan did with the US.

        Blair went to Bush for a weekend or two … need I go on ?

        Merkel spent some time with Bush waaaay back – and now has her head firmly jammed into Obama’s butt. The German people know this absolutely.

        Why do you think Cameron’s Handler John Kerry flew into London the morning before Cam went to Brussels to fess up about his Brex screw-up ?
        Why did Kerry say of Brexit ‘We can walk this back … ‘?

        You need to understand that European Heads, now and in the future, have no autonomy whatsoever. The US will not permit the UK to leave the EU.
        If we pull it off we will be beaten to the ground to teach us a lesson.

        You armchair pundits need to get your heads out your arses and pay attention to the things that REALLY affect you – not how much milk Corbyn has on his Weetabix or whether there’s a snag on his favourite pullover . . .


        • Golem XIV July 11, 2016 at 3:05 pm #

          Hang on a minute Smeg,

          Some of us are a little more than just armchair pundits.

          I agree the US really doesn’t want to let the UK leave the EU. And they are almost certainly hoping they can stop it even now. But if they do I think they might find they unleash something they can then not control.

          • Old Smeg July 11, 2016 at 8:49 pm #

            Ah, there you go – communication.

            You should have taken your cue from the first line:

            ‘Mr. Malone is being distracted.’

            As in: Distracted from his declared purpose in life by engagement in discussion.

            Samuel Johnson declared that, even using the most technically elegant of languages – English – a skilled practitioner could only hope to adequately convey around 70% of that which was intended.

            Even at this range I detect a hurt tone, and apologise for the small unintended dent in your cortex …

            Back to business.

            >> I agree the US really doesn’t want to let the UK leave the EU.

            Bearing in mind that we’re a control conduit, the ultimate US Cat’s Paw, a back-door both commercially and for the rape of european intelligence … is there ANY realistic chance to get out from under ?
            There is NO chance. If there aren’t at least 100 spooks working on this right now – solely on the US side – I would be very surprised. Not that we’ll ever know. I don’t want to get all Conspiracy on you, but malevolent forces are in play and we may soon be seeing a ‘toys out of pram’ situation.
            What will actually happen is, the US State Dept. will put the arm on Teresa May (- much like Merkel, who is astonishing even her hard-line supporters in Germany), the MSM will be conscripted to re-shape our thinking, and the economy will be artificially mangled until the point where a cluster of prominent MPs and opinion-makers will be baying to stay in the EU, along the lines of ‘What choice do we have ? It’s not our fault, but . . .’


          • Golem XIV July 12, 2016 at 8:32 am #

            Reply to Old Smeg – Sorry this won’t go under your comment for some reason.

            I agree with your assessment of US/UK relations. The ‘special relationship’ has always been the UK acting as the US inside man. And of course the State dept will lean on May. I would have thought she would welcome it. A senior advisor to the State dept told me, quite openly, over a decade ago, that they would ‘interfere’ in European politics and alter governments over social spending on pensions etc. Spooks at work? Of course. More insidiously the NED (National Endowment for Democracy) will be busy creating their own pliable version of anything and anyone whose agenda needs to be altered or destroyed.

            These are things we have discussed here over the years. Perhaps you are unaware but your tone comes across as a little on the arrogant side when you assume you have hurt my feelings by telling me things I could not have thought of before you enlightened me. Thank you for your concern but fear not for my cortex.

            If you haven’t read it – and no reason you should have – but you could get a much clearer picture of what I think and what we have discussed around here, on these sorts of matters, if you would care to read “The Next Crisis” series. There are four of them. Last one “reBranding Dissent”.

            I think we agree about what the MSM and the financial interests will do to corral us now. And I am sure it will do its job. They are after all quite good at doing it and have lots of collaborators in the media and parliament.

            But I do not think they will win. I think they know there is a growing public unhappiness. A growing withdrawal of consent. What is left is fear. And they will increasingly react with outright oppression. Which is the first step towards failure.

            Anyway I hope you stick around and continue to contribute.

  11. Doug Leighton July 11, 2016 at 2:43 pm #

    I hope you don’t think i was promoting the Labour Blairite wing and/or the Tory May wing or was suggesting that we adopt or accept even greater technocratic values. (however It is very difficult to rebut technocratic arguments because they make their appeal to our apparent (narrow) self interest and possibly to ‘reason’ ).
    Essentally, I see the ‘West’ as a technical activity, and modern capitalism as a means to turbo-charge that technical activity. Capitalism at the moment is focussed on communications technology, and biotechnology.

    Actually it is difficult to see the world as anything other than an overt technological competition, and to see technocratic rule as the placing of that technology (or more precisely, its change and development), in the hands of those with a stated preference for the unencumbered ‘market testing’ of new ideas,new methods and new stuff.

    That is the problem- technocrats always turn round and say ‘ we pay our bills on time and we get things delivered on time’ which a bit like Mussolini making the trains run on time. There are benefits to technocracy.

    Essentially it is a competitively exploitative process- of both natural resources and/or human resources.
    I suspect that when people say things like ‘we have to be fiscally ‘realistic’ and financially ‘prudent’ and promote ideas such as austerity, it is an unspoken (or not understood) commitment to the primacy of the model of modern capitalism, delivering ever cheaper methods and materials. What is not fully explored is that the benefits are not equably distributed by any recognisable system of merit or virtue The appeal is to our strong sense that it is capitalism that has delivered the comforts of modern life and removed many of the discomforts-and that is difficult if not impossible to refute.

    I think that we are in for the most critical time in our politics. We have had the ‘moments’ -the Brexit vote and the Chilcott report, but now we are in for the extended period of uncertainty, infighting. The pressure on the whole political system is mounting because it seems perfectly clear that the changes in technology have brought with it a great deal more knowledge in a great many people, of how politics and societies work, and the often precarious and remarkably capricious decision making process, which until the mid-nineties seemed like a predictable process delivered by comfortably secure politicians, who were excused the soul searching of modern times.
    My hunch is that both Corbyn and Leadsom will prevail. Then we’ll see some interesting times.

    • Roger Lewis July 11, 2016 at 2:55 pm #

      ”My hunch is that both Corbyn and Leadsom will prevail. Then we’ll see some interesting times.”

      Hopefully it will be a case of one out of two aint bad, Doug.

      Old Smeg, I have not detected a great deal of dick waving around these parts save as to the old chestnut of the Peoples democratic front of MMT vs Positive Money and Citizens Income versus Job Guarantee.


      A narcisism of small differences kind of defines the human condition when one considers Ego and yet the true centre as opposed to Ego the false centre still necessarily finds that we are all ourselves the centre of our own universes whilst the recognition that others are necessarily the centre of their own universe can evade us all at times.
      “[T]he more radical the person is, the more fully he or she enters into
      reality so that, knowing it better, he or she can transform it. This
      individual is not afraid to confront, to listen, to see the world
      unveiled. This person is not afraid to meet the people or to enter into a
      dialogue with them. This person does not consider himself or herself
      the proprietor of history or of all people, or the liberator of the
      oppressed; but he or she does commit himself or herself, within history,
      to fight at their side.”

      ―Paulo Freire,
      Pedagogy of the Oppressed

      • Phil July 11, 2016 at 2:57 pm #

        Nicely put.

      • Old Smeg July 11, 2016 at 9:44 pm #

        Roger –

        That’s pretty cool. I might even put it in my armoury. If I had one.

        Still a bit cryptic, for me.
        May I ask what spawned the submission of these quotes ?
        Are we looking at an alternative communication process ?

        I’ll resist taking up the cudgels over the term ‘reality’, that being a socially constructed and therefore individually experienced phenomenon.


        • Roger Lewis July 12, 2016 at 4:10 am #

          Hi Smeg ,

          3 books I highly recommend,

          Quiggleys Tragedy and Hope

          Frieres Pedagodgy of the oppressed

          Batemans An Ecology of Mind

          On Reality Frierre refers to seeing reality form the perspective of the Otherhe goes beuon the object/Subject Dichotomy. When one quotes I tend to quote from a whole book the context I default to is the Context of the whole book in the context of the whole discussion in the contect of my own experience with the all importtant open context that each individual reader brings to an on line discussion.

          Reality Falsified.

          Reality is à slice of infinity,
          Make sure you try a piece.
          Plenty to go around
          Add seasoning to taste
          Abstract constructs
          Incompleteness and uncertainty
          Are in the nature of infinity
          Falsifiability is in the nature of reality
          Subjects of defined limits create reality
          One can create or falsify ones own reality
          Reality as objective,subjective or abstract
          Is all an absract construct relative to subjective limits placed on the infinite continuum.
          There are many realities, but Only one infinity
          Infinity encompasses all realities
          Realities are faceted With infinite perspectives
          Perscribed reality is not necessarily evident

  12. Doug Leighton July 11, 2016 at 2:54 pm #

    Oh dear! Refuted by events within five minutes. I said Leadsom would prevail.

    She has just thrown in the towel. Now I wonder if Smeg was right- was it all down to the Kerry visit? Is it the first step in the walking back?

    • Old Smeg July 11, 2016 at 9:27 pm #

      Doug –
      Ya put me in a spot here.
      Your 2nd Post was most entertaining, unlike the first.
      Is this how Love/Hate relationships begin !?

      This thread is about to baloon out of control; that is, there isn’t enough Bandwidth to address each of the Posts with the care that each deserves. There will be blood.

      How can useful input be made ? Should I try to sway the opinions displayed here ?
      Should I try to prevail ? Why is my opinion more important etc etc ? Will any learning take place ? And will any of the consequent discussion make any material difference ?

      By material difference I mean advancing the DM cause …

      First off, Kerry will maim whoever takes up the role. See adjacent ramblings.
      A casual reading of almost any history will show that, on the day, almost nobody had any REAL idea of what was going on. This is probably the case right now despite what we might think we know.

      I’m off to address Roger firstly –


  13. Harry July 11, 2016 at 3:03 pm #

    David, I’m puzzled firstly that your analysis leaves out completely those of us on the progressive left who are absolute fans of immigration, many of us being of immigrant origin to some extent ourselves, but who understand extremely well that it is a difficult process on very many levels – which has been so badly mishandled that it was absolutely necessary to call a halt.

    Immigration can be as destructive as it can be vitalising…it is far from a simple positive or negative.

    We simply have not had any detailed debate about the various possible effects of immigration on society.

    In any case, the priority has to be on integration…which is a two-way process where the host population also has to go through tremendous changes. We hope that our developing community music project will be able to be at the forefront of such a process.

    Secondly, Brexit opens up extraordinary political opportunities for those of us on the progressive left, and yourself in particular, that would have been completely unthinkable beforehand, to the extent that it could become the entire re-making of our nation.

    The entire EU project was founded on fear between nations. This is something that could never succeed in the longer term. However, cooperation born out of love between nations is entirely possible, and can continue on all the best elements of internationalism that has been promoted by the EU,,,which is a phase that we did have to pass through after two World wars, but can now mature out of.

    • Golem XIV July 11, 2016 at 3:17 pm #

      Hello Harry.

      I didn’t mean to leave anyone out. I did mean to stick to a careful analysis of what was in that article.And so I didn’t broaden out to a far broader debate. The debate you allude to.

      I agree with you that that debate must be had and is absolutely vital. But it is a powder keg and needs to be dealt with carefully so as not to raise hackles and set people against each other. So I did;t feel it was something I could touch on in passing in any way.

      My view is that what has been neglected, among many things, in eh endless name calling around immigration is that Culture matters. It matters hugely to people. Both the immigrant population and the resident population. Thatcher was happy with the saying that there was no such thing as society. I have felt that both the right and left have something seemed to talk as if culture doesn’t exist. As if a nation is just a place a territory where people come to find work.

      Instead of realising that people arrive with more than the hope of a job and the people they meet there have more they care about than their jobs. Both have cultures and values they care about, that they feel are part of them. To deny this of either group is wrong.

      Anyway I did not suspect you of anything. I was just interested to think about what you had said.

      I think immigration and multiculturalism as formulated by Blaire et al is something the left, and all of us, need to talk about honestly and openly.

      • Alastair July 12, 2016 at 5:23 am #

        David, doesn’t this just boil down to whether or not people believe/follow the old ‘when in Rome’ concept? The problem is that this has never really been discussed openly and rationally, attempts now are shut down or consigned to labels of racism before a point is made. Another big point often made is the amount of money immigrants generate for the tax coffers. This is a fair point but I’d like to see it expressed as gross and net. With the difference between the two numbers the amount pumped back into services.

        Too often it feels like the state is quick to accept, and trumpet, the tax gains. But slows to a crawl at best when it comes to putting something back to areas strained by increasing numbers. Though the gains will bring increased prosperity our economic system sees to it that these gains are felt by few. Whereas the impact on services is all too visible to those that never feel any prosperity gains.

        Culturally the melting pot doesn’t melt too well when it’s overflowing. This is an issue in and of itself but coupled with neoliberal led de-industrialisation and a race to the bottom…not only are tensions not surprising I’d say they were more likely an emergent property. While anger simmering over into racism is wrong this doesn’t mean the anger is wrong just the target. In this I feel people have been let down by all parts of the political spectrum. From the sneering ‘intellectuals’ to the rabble rousing opportunists.

        I guess we can just chalk up another divide and conquer victory for neoliberal globalisation.

        • Golem XIV July 12, 2016 at 8:43 am #

          I agree with you sentiments. The economics are difficult and always used partially as far as I can see.

          Over all a young immigrant population will be good for the ‘Economy”. But whose economy? Austerity is ‘good’ of r ‘the economy’ in some measures.

          And that’s the problem. Who exactly gets the ebenfot and who suffers the negatives. Employers certainly benefit.

          The analysis isn’t the same at every level in ‘the economy’. Skilled doctors working in the NHS are quite different to analyse than fruit pickers or hotel workers.

          And those quick to tell us how great immigrant doctors are, while quite correct about how lucky we are to have them in our hospitals, never never seem to think about the parasitic effect we are having on the place these doctors come from. Friends from Poland explain that Poland educates these doctors and then we get all the benefit. So we are parasites on their investment in doctors. Not so very wonderful.

          And as for melting pots and ‘when in Rome’ I agree this is a massive discussion where the multiculturalists will brand people as racist if they have the temerity to even suggest a discussion would be good.

          My view is that Culture Matter. Really matters to those immigrants and residents alike. Both sets of values need to be accorded respect and consideration.

          • Alastair July 12, 2016 at 11:11 am #

            Agreed David and particularly in regard to us preying on foreign skills to the detriment of their nations. Unfortunately the global economic system is set up to ignore externalities wherever possible. In fact slash and burn is right in the thick of the policies.

      • Harry July 14, 2016 at 10:17 am #

        Thanks, David – I just wanted to broaden the debate a little, which seems to have happened!

        I very much appreciate your willingness to examine culture as a central (actually possibly THE central?) aspect of the debate – the ‘elephant in the room’ – which has been largely avoided.

        This needs to be led by people who are decidedly pro immigration – but ONLY if it is understood to be a highly complex issue to be managed extremely carefully.

    • Old Smeg July 11, 2016 at 10:31 pm #

      Harry –

      >> We simply have not had any detailed debate about the various possible effects of immigration on society.

      Where have you been for the last 50 years ?

      >> In any case, the priority has to be on integration…

      Where have you been for the last 50 years ? There is no integration.
      (I hope you noted my earlier assertions about generalisation.)

      Would you like to tell me with a straight face that the Pakistani population would dearly love to achieve a higher degree of integration ? It’s simply not the case.
      Or the Jewish ?
      Or the various African peoples ?

      The Pakistanis despise us, the Jews revile and despise us, many of the various Middle-Eastern groups despise us, and the Africans have a shoulder-chip disgust of us that is incorporated with their Mother’s milk. I did not get this from ‘The Independent’ or any other rag; I believe it could be described as ‘social interaction’….

      This is not a project that is just beginning despite that characterisation by the MSM; the 1965 Race Relations Act – a Bill brought into Parliament by an immigrant – that wasn’t even the beginning of what has become a Grand Social Experiment at the cost of the British people.

      Here’s another hot coal: Why do we need immigration ? Because we’re told constantly that the UK needs it ? They allegedly pay taxes – but most of our crop are too low-paid to generate taxes. Check out the Office of National Statistics ONS for hard data, including the NET contribution/take for immigrants in our system. Or follow Frank Field MP for proper dirt.

      What kind of immigrants do we need ? Road sweepers or toilet cleaners ? No – we got toilet cleaners – we need skilled workers. Who the hell are we to expect to be allowed to suck 1000’s of skilled people out of their original heimats, depriving those by-definition emerging economies of that vital resource ?

      3rd hot coal: we have 600,000 people in tertiary education in the UK. Take out the 100,000 that are supposed to leave (carrying with them the intellectual fruits of 200 years of British industrial and social evolution, which we sold (to some of them) for literally baksheesh) and you still have 1000’s of trained people eager – desperate, even – to create wealth.

      Does the term ‘Mantra’ have any resonance for you ?

      >> integration…which is a two-way process where the host
      >> population also has to go through tremendous changes.

      I’m not prepared to make any more change than has been demanded of me so far,
      and that has been almost beyond endurance. Where have you been for the last 50 years ?

      >> The entire EU project was founded on fear between nations.

      No, it wasn’t. You’ve been reading the wrong material again. I can see the wires.

      >> cooperation born out of love between nations is entirely possible

      We used to love our neighbours – and now we don’t; we fear them.

      Sorry Harry – Null point. Must try harder . . .


      • Roger Lewis July 12, 2016 at 4:13 am #

        ”My aim is not to provide excuses for black behavior or to absolve blacks of personal responsibility. But when the new black conservatives accent black behavior and responsibility in such a way that the cultural realities of black people are ignored, they are playing a deceptive and dangerous intellectual game with the lives and fortunes of disadvantaged people. We indeed must criticize and condemn immoral acts of black people, but we must do so cognizant of the circumstances into which people are born and under which they live. By overlooking these circumstances, the new black conservatives fall into the trap of blaming black poor people for their predicament. It is imperative to steer a course between the Scylla of environmental determinism and the Charybdis of a blaming-the-victims perspective.”
        from Race Matters. Cornell West.


        • Alastair July 12, 2016 at 5:27 am #

          Cornell West really nails it when he explains that, though he comes from a black perspective, this is really a class war.

      • Golem XIV July 12, 2016 at 8:51 am #

        Old Smeg,

        I think I understand your anger on these subjects BUT please refrain from “They hate us” talk. Such generalisations do nothing to help.

        The one rule we have always tried to adhere to is being polite to each other. It may seem quaint but it is important. Flinging insults and sneering put downs is everywhere on the net. It is the preferred means of derailing discussions. Therefore we do not want it here.

        • Old Smeg July 12, 2016 at 1:45 pm #

          >> Flinging insults and sneering put downs

          I accept that criticism. An attempt to lighten the mood.

          >> I think I understand your anger on these subjects

          No – you _don’t_ understand what you call ‘anger’.
          This is about methodology. Somebody needs to shake the tree.

          These are the facts concerning another’s ‘call for more integration’.
          Hate for the Kuffar and similar propensities are a matter of published fact. You can’t deny facts by proffering accusations of any kind.

          I’m disappointed by this boiler-plate response, a standard method to silence dissenters. People need to be awoken, and it won’t be achieved by massaging their prejudices and preconceptions with gentle cajoling.

          Hate: you don’t need to do any research on clear divisions between the cultural groupings mentioned, it’s all over any media you care to inspect and has been for years. If you’d like to deny that what’s happening in the US right now isn’t mirrored to a small degree in the African community in the British Isles, well …

          However. Non of this is pursuant to your goal, so we’ll put an end to ego-trading.


          • Phil July 12, 2016 at 3:46 pm #

            I have to say I have never been aware of any problems in the UK with Christian or secular African migrants.

            I am afraid I am however concerned about the attitude of some Muslims in the UK and the on-going backlash that is causing.

        • Old Smeg July 12, 2016 at 5:47 pm #

          David – I hope this appears in the correct order –

          There is something of a schism in our thinking processes.

          >> when you assume you have hurt my feelings by telling me things
          >> I could not have thought of before you enlightened me.

          It was a well-intentioned attempt to assuage your bristling over apparent offence – not directed to you – as in:

          >> Some of us are a little more than just armchair pundits.

          If you think this –
          >> Perhaps you are unaware but your tone comes across as a little on the arrogant side
          – then we really do have a problem with communications.

          >> you could get a much clearer picture of what I think and what we have discussed
          >> around here, on these sorts of matters, if you would care to read “The Next Crisis”

          Plodding thru it, as time allows …


          Perhaps we could take a moment to define contexts and perhaps preclude further difficulty in communication. This is some of what drives me to be so ‘arrogant’ …
          Bored Listeners can bale here …

          I mentioned before that –

          >>> This thread is about to balloon out of control; that is, there isn’t enough Bandwidth
          >>> to address each of the Posts with the care that each deserves. There will be blood.

          I spent a deal of time on Discussion Forums. There’s not much anyone can tell me about the ebb and flow of human discourse. There will be no new philosophical revelations to surprise me.

          Some of what I learned, amongst many, many assorted concepts, are –

          Pragmatism. Not actually learned, but greatly strengthened.

          Generalisation is necessary to make any progress in discussion. A statement concerning such generalisation can preclude the endless nit-picking over detail obscuring the larger issues.

          Everybody just wants to be loved. They try many, many methods to bring this about.

          Facts are king. If you reason with facts, you will never be outplayed or overcome by opinion.

          Everyone lies, especially about ‘facts’. They get away with this because there is insufficient capacity or will in the general population to ratify each and every statement. Politicians are among the worst liars, aided and abetted by the adversarial nature of our Parliamentary process, normally comprised of a few time-limited ’rounds’ of abuse followed by drinks in the bar.

          There are actual liars and virtual liars. The actual liars are driven by greed, fear, or ideological principles – usually those negatively affecting others. Very few actors truly attempt to bring about change for the greater good. Virtual liars are those who want things to be ‘different’, whether it be about the price of eggs, the removal of Speed Limit signs, or their perceived status in some virtual world. Exaggeration is a type of virtual lying, as is deprecation.

          Opinion is worthless in the Grand Scheme. It’s just a manifestation of each individual’s reality.Every reality is different, as a consequence of the individual processes (correctly termed perceptions) which internalise the experiences of each individual. Reality is fashioned by social
          conditions/conditioning, and altho’ your opinion is irrelevant to another person, in a broad sense we share much of the conditioning and therefore many of the opinions. But on the public stage, the very idea of ‘Opinion formers’ doesn’t cut it for me. Do you really want to base the refinement of your Worldview on the chaos leaking from the mind of another? There are a very limited number of commentators in the world in whom I would place trust to inform my ideas. For example: reading this week’s ‘TIME’ editorial piece on Brexit just makes me want to shoot the author in the face …

          It follows from the above that, as every published item (not stated as ‘fact’) is just an expression of opinion, usually coloured (adulterated) with smatterings of ego, ideology, editorial intrusion and often ignorance of the issues, the unsuspecting reader has to learn to sift diligently through the lines, cross-refer with multiple sources, and take home maybe 10% of the material as meaningful.

          How are we doing so far ?

          Some of the concepts that inform my (obviously flaky) stances:

          I am fanatical about the correct recognition of scale in the analysis and description of any process.

          Humans don’t do Scale properly. I want to change the world, but realising the scale of this pathetic ambition, I remain uselessly frustrated. I do not have the reach, and probably lack the will to leverage Social Networking at the necessary level to achieve change. Notwithstanding, I’m firmly convinced that SN will be the way that Change is accomplished.

          Humans don’t do Value – value decisions are rarely made correctly – that includes polititians making decisions affecting millions … the human mind doesn’t truly understand a number greater than five.
          It’s not my fault. You can do the research yourself.

          Humans have no real understanding of time vs. process. See above ‘polititians’. There are computer systems that attempt to plan ‘Project time-to-run’ – and they’re always WRONG, due to the inabilty of humans to understand what they – and the software – are trying to do.

          Scale and Time and Value are all concepts, as it happens, framed within the discussions on immigration . . .

          Enough for now.


      • Harry July 14, 2016 at 10:00 am #

        Hi Smeg,

        I’m actually largely in agreement with you!

        The estate where I live had only one or two black people on it when we moved here 20 years ago. Now it’s at about 60%. Similar large sections of a nearby estate are at almost 100%. It’s been far too much, too fast. I agree entirely that the level of integration has been minimal, and with David that both left & right have simply ignored the whole issue of culture and simply seen people in terms of economic (or voting) units.

        I agree with you that a large majority of in-comers over many years have not want to integrate. I have increasingly found that social projects which are led by them which should be inclusive have instead become separatist with regard to ethnicity and even gender, too. Nothing is said, of course, but people who don’t fit the background of whoever is in leadership are not talked to – or talked to in a way that will simply discourage them from returning. Job done.

        Instead of integration, populations who are simply profoundly different in many respects are forced to live side by side or get out. Those younger indigenous people who can, generally do, leaving the elderly behind. As they die off, the in-comers effectively take over.

        Nor is it that in-comers simply want to retain an existing culture. Typically, there is such a desperation for high levels of economic success, that previous ethical considerations that might have been in place will often now be abandoned. Without previous social constraints in place, immigration can lead to huge negative character developments. Latent mental health issues are likely to grow much more, without similar social restraint.

        Many cultures throughout the world have considerable levels of corruption within them. It is inevitable that this will filter through to UK life if it is not very strongly countered.

        In many situations the ‘horse has already bolted’, however it is desperately important to provide platforms for mutual understanding wherever possible, which will allow us to start to make friends across these cultural divides, while limiting the numbers of new migrants and selecting only those who show an understanding of what it means to integrate into wider UK society, and a desire to do so.

        It’s very early days, but we hope that our community music program in SE London will become a model for what may be possible more widely, and even to ‘bring the horse back’, where things have got out of control.

  14. c1ue July 11, 2016 at 4:41 pm #

    Cheers for being a level headed, civil participant in an otherwise ugly discussion.
    As you noted, the most likely result of sneering, main stream commentary is the empowerment of the uglier parts of the philosophically opposed.
    Sadly, I consider this to be inevitable. The attitudes you decry above can survive only apart from the searing fire of open conflict, and as such it will be open conflict which cures them.

  15. HomerJS July 11, 2016 at 10:24 pm #

    The Brexit and Remain official arguments were so bad and over the top that I believe a lot of people just ignored them. Since the result the Leave campaign has ended but the hysteria of the Remainers is still in full flow. I think what we are seeing in the Laurie Penny article is just one example of this.

    I voted leave because I saw this as an opportunity to give a nudge to the already stumbling global economy. I also thought that if TTIP came in we would stand a better chance of changing our minds outside the EU than still in inside it. France saying they would veto almost changed my mind, but the timing was just too suspicious and I wasn’t willing to risk so much on it. My view on the EU is similar to Corbyn’s in term of scoring, but I didn’t believe that things could be changed from the inside. After all, look at how many things that are wrong have not been changed and have been there for decades, as well as noting that with each expansion it becomes more difficult to make changes.

    I know some people wanted to cause harm to Cameron, and for them they were successful. Actually they were much more than successful, they over-achieved in a big way. Not only did Cameron go, but George Osborne and Boris Johnson had their leadership aims in tatters, and as a bonus Nigel Farage stood down.

    • Inorbitt July 12, 2016 at 12:00 am #

      “I voted leave because I saw this as an opportunity to give a nudge to the already stumbling global economy.” Me too.

      I voted leave as it seemed like the anti-establishment choice. It’s been great so far. As a bonus many Remainer columnists like the one quoted, are successfully destroying respect for the ‘soft’ left.

      If the Left (Green Party / Corbynites / Anarchists / Communists etc.) are going to wrest control of this situation we need to reach out to working class UKIP voters.

      On this point, I am enjoying the very interesting discussion about culture. Protecting local culture and celebrating it, openly discussing the pros and cons of immigration might help.

      • steviefinn July 12, 2016 at 1:39 am #

        I find the culture aspect interesting too & I have been for some time thinking back to pre – Thatcher days, when I lived within a working class community which for the most part was happy with itself. I think this was mainly due to the fact that for most people had a role, which came mainly from the workplace. The school system did it’s job by preparing some for trades & others for a chance at climbing up the social ladder. Public transport was good as was the local infrastructure & there was a definite sense of place & community.

        Obviously we cannot go back to that & I might sound like a Pythonesque Yorkshireman wearing rose tinted glasses, but it does seem to me that the problems we are having now, are largely due to the destruction of all of this, leading to a situation of people feeling adrift, hopeless & separate.

        Of course the causes were various – the overeach of the unions in some cases, out-sourcing of industries, bad management, the decline in real wages replaced with debt, combined with the promise of an everlasting consumer heaven, the zeitgeist of every man for himself, out of town shopping malls & so on.

        I have spent the last 18 years in Ireland & have off & on visited where I once lived as i like to wander around in a place where every corner for me has an attached memory – something that I think would not be the case if I had never left. It’s a bit like being the occasional relative who turns up & notices how a child has grown, unlike the parents who are there all the time. This child though has not been growing & I have been witness to it becoming evermore stunted.

        I believe that due to what now appears to have become a lost tribe, immigration, particularly the mass form, has become a big issue, simply because, or at least mainly because, very many people are fighting for a limited amount of crumbs within a society where many feel that they have no place, no worth or future & due to having been abandoned by the main parties, have been forced to look elsewhere to those who purport to have their best interests at heart.

        Perhaps Brexit might eventually lead to us getting our own house in some sort of order, if people can work together & actually look at the reasons for what appears to me to be to have been a cry for help in terms of the Brexit vote. Trying to get people back to decent work & having a decent place to live without a mortgage noose around their necks or a Rachman type landlord might be a good start.

        In terms of the unholy mess that the world is in, caused mainly I think, by what seems to me to be the mass corruption of the so called elites in search of an insatiable lust for more – we are living in a lifeboat that in a world of ever rising stormy seas. I believe that we first have look after our own little boat as well as trying to somehow prevent the problems that are the cause of the storms out there, if we don’t, we will be in no fit state to help anyone else – this is not a conclusion I like coming to, but I think it is the tragic reality.

        • Old Smeg July 16, 2016 at 6:04 pm #

          A really elegant piece. One para. grabbed me:

          >> It’s a bit like being the occasional relative who turns up & notices how a child has grown, unlike the parents who are there all the time. This child though has not been growing.

          I can identify with this, having been strung between two countries (and therefore cultures) for 40 years. Each transit throws up a series of ‘snapshots’, noticings, just as you say. A simple view would be that I could see – by comparison – the good and the bad of each culture. For example, when a 7yr-old kid asks you ‘Why is everywhere so clean ?’ you tend to look over your shoulder at the decay of Britain’s streets where you trod moments before.

          The real lessons were those of perspective, plus the fact that there are other ways to go about things, and that the British are pretty small-minded and insignificant in the global etc etc . . .

          The final take-home, I suppose, was the ability to ‘role-reverse’, which is an incredibly powerful tool if you seek to understand the reasons for the actions of another, or of a group. This does, of course, neglect external influences such as ideology, fear etc. – but that belongs elsewhere, under ‘Politics’ . . .


      • Golem XIV July 12, 2016 at 9:00 am #

        We do indeed, I think, need to change the starting ground and assumptions upon which immigration is discussed.

        Culture is what it is about not just numbers or jobs or contributions to the economy. It is about people wanting to say, living in a place is more than camping in a territory looking for a job. A nation is not merely a physical place on a map. It is a complex map belief, values and history. And those things need to be respected by all.

        Immigrants bring a culture with them which is precious to them Even more so when they have been forced to leave their own place of birth behind due to wars inflicted on them by others. But then they arrive at a new country there are people there who also have a culture which is also precious to them.

        We anyone arrives here they enter a culture and history not just a marketplace. Whatever cultural values they bring have to fins an accommodation with the culture and history already here. This is, for example, a largely secular culture – in that we do not give precedence to catholic values or happy-flappy protestant ones either. Nor Jewish nor muslim nor Hindu. The Gods of all the beliefs have ‘god-given’ rules but they are all subservient to the rules of this culture. The catholic god may say abortion is wrong. This culture says its fine and catholics have to deal with that. Just an example.

        Anyway,this is a very difficult discussion and if I have been intemperate anywhere I apologise. I have to wish to exclude anyone or make anyone feel unwelcome.

  16. HaHaHerman July 11, 2016 at 11:37 pm #

    Seventh grade science teacher, 34 years, retired

    In regards to immigration:
    I have returned to this several times, with mixed feelings.

    I am always happy and relieved to see you post again.

    Best wishes

  17. Deanna Johnston Clark July 11, 2016 at 11:43 pm #

    I’ve been learning abut Cricket online from a multi-national group of fans. It seems India, Pakistan, the West Indies…and so on…are crazy about it. The kids play it in the streets, everyone watches it on the telly, and people flock to the games. I believe tea is also popular all over the world.

    So why is Ms Laurie Penny insulting people who love tea and cricket? I haven’t read such ugly talk since insults about ‘negroes’ loving watermelon and grits. Isn’t it time we also learned those foods are very good for people? And also learned to stop being cute with nasty insults about sports and food people love?

    I don’t agree that such insults are in good fun. They are ignorant and mean spirited…the very qualities she claims to abhor.

  18. bh2 July 12, 2016 at 5:14 am #

    “Such unattractive people. And the author is afraid of them. Seems to be keen we should all be frightened of them and their nasty plans for the future.”

    The vote was not just against institutions in Brussels and Westminster. It’s no less likely against elitist attitudes of people like Ms. Penny who are shocked that other citizens may differ with their esteemed opinions. They take it personally. As well they should.

    Indeed, xenophobia in Britain is exceedingly common in some locations. Particularly among smug mugs who live in London and regard the rest of the country to be primitives beneath contempt.

  19. steviefinn July 12, 2016 at 12:29 pm #

    Hot off the press statistics from the Pew research centre appear to show that the concerns in the UK towards immigration are much the same in the EU, in terms of jobs, undermining national culture etc :


  20. Phil July 12, 2016 at 3:51 pm #

    Speaking as a former Labour party member, I have to tell you that there are many in Labour, particularly London Labour who believe that the non-EU immigration of the last 16 years will in 10-15 years time guarantee them permanent majorities via the demographic changes around the country. I have to say I find such ethnic/racial gerrymandering to be grotesquely immoral and extremely undemocratic. The otherwise level-headed Trevor Phillips spells it out here, even going so far as to coin the phrase ‘Brown Labour’.


    Isn’t this BNP-style politics in reverse?

    Words fail me.

    • Roger Lewis July 12, 2016 at 4:29 pm #

      from an old freind back in my London Days. He now runs a champagne bar in Woolwich Arsenal.Louie St Clair
      June 24 at 11:46am · London, United Kingdom ·
      Got my first ever “Nazi Salute” this morning in my local Cafe. 😎 Here we go!
      LikeShow more reactionsCommentShare
      Sheri Webb
      Sheri Webb Disgusting . Click your heels and do it back! Xx
      Like · Reply · June 24 at 12:50pm
      Louie St Clair
      Louie St Clair I gave him a Right Fisted Salute. The only thing was my black glove. LMAO. 😂
      Like · Reply · 3 · June 24 at 12:56pm
      Louie St Clair
      Louie St Clair Missing
      Like · Reply · June 24 at 12:56pm
      Andrea Stewart
      Andrea Stewart Seriously! Funny that I had an incident on public transport yesterday
      Like · Reply · June 24 at 5:39pm
      Simona DL
      Simona DL Well that’s just great…not!!
      Like · Reply · June 24 at 6:12pm
      Ashwin Mushran
      Ashwin Mushran Say what? Seriously?
      Like · Reply · June 24 at 7:23pm
      Grace Darling
      Grace Darling
      Like · Reply · June 24 at 7:25pm
      Bilal Bham
      Bilal Bham FFS!
      Like · Reply · June 24 at 7:44pm
      Louie St Clair
      Louie St Clair I didn’t take it seriously…the other guys sitting with him were more upset than me. When I gave him my Black Power Salute back, they all smiled and so did I . I’m more concerned about how we going keep the whole country together. History has taught us to be careful what we wish for.
      Like · Reply · 4 · June 24 at 9:46pm
      Kacey Filo Joe
      Kacey Filo Joe Is this back to the prevalence of National Front
      Like · Reply · June 25 at 2:47pm
      Margaret Winstanley
      Margaret Winstanley Nice moves Mr St Clair ! 😀 well deflected !! Yes!
      Like · Reply · June 26 at 12:04am

      Louis is a wonderful man, we were hanging out alot when the BNP were making inroads in Tower Hamlets and there was some hugely ingrained racism in the East End of London back in the 80’2 and 90´s which I am sure still hasn´t gone away.

      This Talk from Olof Palme is worth a listen,

      As with terrorism the causes of Predjudice are Economic and Political not religous
      Of course Cultural considerations and mutual respect have to be given the conditions to co exist.

      The ecomnnomic aspects of immigration have dawned eventually on the political class in Sweden 1 Loaf of bread can feed only a family and for it to feed 5000 people you need a miracle the remoteness and out of touch denial found in our political and Economic masters is staggering.
      http://letthemconfectsweeterlies.blogspot.se/2012/07/socratic-management-learning-by.html ´ In isolated elites remote politicians and financiers in far off lands what can they ever hope to be reminded of. Lets remember not to forget our own worth”.

      • Phil July 13, 2016 at 11:38 am #

        With all due respect, none of that addresses what has been a most egregious use of African and South Asian immigration for political ends and for the desires of global capital. It seems to me that many on the Left continually seek to close off this debate by whatever means possible – be it by making damaging accusations or by changing the subject. And for that reason alone, I have lost faith in much of the Left because I don’t see that it has learned any of the lessons of the twentieth century when in many countries it engaged in the stifling of freedom of thought and speech.

        Regarding BNP activity in Tower Hamlets: what is the ethnic make up of that area now? I believe the white British represent just 13% of the population. The East End and its Cockney culture has been completely obliterated. Is anyone really surprised that some resisted this? Ed West’s book on immigration is very good. He points out then when researchers in the East End measured the number of connections that a person had to their area, they found that the person most invested in Tower Hamlets was the local leader of the BNP.

        This doesn’t make their activities ok but it does illustrate that this is about more than just ‘far right ideology’ and concerns the displacement of people who never asked to be displaced.

        • Roger Lewis July 13, 2016 at 2:18 pm #

          Hi Phil,

          The story of the East end goes back way beyond my time there, to Hugenot weavers in the late 19th century and before , the melting pot I entered in the Late 80´s was the fall out of the closure of the docks due to Containerisation and the need for deep water ports. The Economic vacuum left by de industrialisation and Yuppification saw the scapegoat filling the void being that of blaming the other?
          I welcome the debate it is one that has gone on since my school days in the 70´s and before that has been reflected in british culture since a long time ago probaly to the fisrt crusades.
          In the film Lexit this segment with Paul Embury of the Firefighters Union https://youtu.be/pq72f81kkM4?t=51m36s sets out the use of immigration and open borders as a neo liberal tool to attack workers rights, I think what he says is very relevant to how I think the positive of Immigration can be balanced with the negatives by making sure exploitation of the poorest in society is not enabled by the political economy of society.

          Neo Liberal Ideology is really an ideology of unmitigated capitalism the idea that displacement of people is not an aspect of Economic Geography Phil is to me silly both Indigenous poor people and immigrant poor people are victims of Capitalism ultimately and foremost they are both exploited and neither is the cause of the plight of the other. A lot of the Far Right stuff would simply lose any attraction if this was better articulated as it is by Paul Embury in the Video.

          • steviefinn July 13, 2016 at 8:43 pm #

            I suppose that it sums up the problem of there not being a proper discussion on these issues, alongside more independent research other than that put out from those who could well be the beneficiaries of the results.

            A friend & I once went on a day trip with hardcore National Front lads, which turned out to be a horrific experience for two idiot sixteen year olds. Ironically the lad I was on this trip to hell with me, who was not in the slightest bit racist. I found out a little while back after losing contact for about 35 years that he had become a BNP supporter. From what he told me this was because as a bricklayer, he had over the last decade or so seen his income fall due to Eastern Europeans & then other immigrants undercutting his rates, which among other things eventually lead to him not taking on young people who he had been giving the closest he could get to the apprenticeship that he had received.

            It kind of shocked me as he was a nice lad & I asked him why BNP ?, his answer was that nobody else gave a damn. It’s pretty obvious that we are sowing bad seeds by ignoring stories like his & therefore leaving a void for the nutcases to fill.

          • Old Smeg July 16, 2016 at 9:37 pm #

            Globalisation –

            >> unmitigated capitalism – the idea that displacement of people is not an aspect of Economic Geography

            As far as the Common Man is concerned, globalisation can only represent a threat because there will always be SOMEONE on the surface of the Earth who will do it for less. It’s facile to talk about local unemployment figures when the globalist agenda is to fill your (local) boots with a cheaper DNA-bearing organism.

            Free movement etc etc just means I must be prepared to work for East Timorese wages. Unfortunately for us mere mortals, they can move the cost of labour but YOU can’t so easily move the cost of living. I have Polish friends who earn 4X here what they get at home, but their home COL is about the same as here. How can you blame them for migrating ? Bringing in David’s concern for culcha, how can we tear these people away from kith and kin, Church and hearth, school buddies and loved others for a couple of measly fiat bucks ? That, you shining, adored, economic wunderkinder, is the real cost of your crazy idealised ambitions.

            And now a q: has anybody drilled-down to the ACTUAL underpinning of the free-movement mantra of the EU ?
            WHAT is it that Merkel clutches to her breast each night as she cuddles up along with the Communist Manifesto that her Dad gave her for Communion . . . ?


    • steviefinn July 12, 2016 at 4:56 pm #

      Kind of proves the point of those who feel abandoned & judging by the reaction shown in the stats above, which is currently being illustrated by the re-run of the Austrian election – it doesn’t strike me as being at all wise.

      • steviefinn July 12, 2016 at 5:52 pm #

        Roger – Your post illustrates part of the unfolding tragedy in that people who I think for the most part cannot be blamed for migrating to another country, which has likely been screwed up by those pulling the strings ( after all I did it myself ), will be the ones who face the very probable backlash.

        I read Brian Manning’s ” 1649 – The crisis of the English Revolution ” & one of the things that I picked up from it was that in his opinion, it is only when what he called ” The middle sort of people ” feel the pain, that there is any real chance of a successful movement against the forces causing it – According to this it’s already happening in the US, & I have heard tales of it progressing in ROI.


        • Roger Lewis July 12, 2016 at 6:25 pm #

          I’ll see if I can find the manning Book Steve thanks for mentioning it.It is us middling sort of folk who enable the Oppressive regime to perpetuate, Marx called us the Bourgoisie. Robin Smith posoted here a few times with his satirical Melt Fund, now sadly no longer on line. As we arer all able to communicate with each other as trust builds hopefully the courage will grow to confront our own worse lies, that is the ones we tell ourselves.

        • Old Smeg July 16, 2016 at 9:15 pm #

          stevie –
          >> it is only when what he called ” The middle sort of people ” feel the
          >> pain, that there is any real chance of a successful
          >> movement against the forces causing it –

          There is a lot to learn from a close review of history; but history no longer repeats itself because we changed the playing field so dramatically.

          Now we have the ability to destroy the Earth and everyone on it, the stakes are somewhat different from finding out where the keys to the
          Loom House are . . .


          • steviefinn July 16, 2016 at 10:09 pm #

            True enough – I just meant it in the sense of Neoliberalism is largely only as yet lapping at the feet of many whose lifestyles have largely been unaffected. I think it is why Renzi is worried about bail-ins in Italy & why the Brexit mutiny is largely from those down in steerage who can it seems usually be easily ignored.

  21. MarkB July 12, 2016 at 10:20 pm #

    If not now, when? I’ve been following this blog for eight years, wherever I’ve been and whatever I’ve been doing in my busy, crazy tied up life. David, your humanity hurts my heart, you too Stevie Finn, and Patricia from a while back left a mark. And so many other contributors too. Thank you!

    • steviefinn July 13, 2016 at 8:54 pm #

      I’m just a concerned waffler unlike David who is doing something concrete about the sorry state of things. Maybe I am misunderstanding you, but I’m not sure that I like the sound of hurting your heart, as I would rather be doing something to soothe it.

    • Golem XIV July 13, 2016 at 11:16 pm #

      I will stand with you and you with me and others with us.

  22. Salford Lad July 14, 2016 at 12:45 pm #


    To more mundane matters.When we stand together we can make a difference ,as can be seen by the Brexit vote. We have consigned Tony Blair to the trash can of history via the Chilcot Enquiry and dumped Cameron and his austerity freak Osborne.
    We now need to reclaim the Labour Party from the Nu Labour carpetbaggers.Click on the link to become a member and vote for Jeremy Corbyn in the Leadership election.

  23. Salford Lad July 16, 2016 at 11:52 am #


    The above article clarifies some of the issues that required a Leave vote in the Brexit referendum.
    What is not mentioned is that the EU was a US Project from shortly after WWII ,to control Europe politically in the hidden war against the Soviet Union and now Russia.
    This was exposed by Ambrose Evans-Pritchard in 2002 and recently in the Daily Telegraph.
    It is easier to control one political body like the EU rather than 28 disparate parliaments.
    NATO is effectively the military wing of the EU and the cloak behind which the US carries out its hegemonic ambitions,
    Thus we have had the destruction of Yugoslavia, the coup in Ukraine and the EU complicit in the wars in Iraq,Afghanistan ,Syria,Libya,Somalia and Yemen.
    The positioning of ABM nuclear weapons in Romania ,soon Poland and the blatant warmongering of NATO by military exercises with 30k troops on the borders of Russia.
    I have not mentioned the Economic issues which are evident in the PIIGS nations and are disastrous,especially the poorly conceived Euro currency.
    To sum, the EU is a bureaucratic, necrotic,schlerotic , anti-democratic,corrupt body, which can not be reformed from within
    Britain is blessed to be free of it,if our Tory Govt does not renege on the referendum.

    • Old Smeg July 16, 2016 at 9:10 pm #

      Interesting Link;
      Summarises pretty much what everyone understands but haven’t the tools to vocalise.

      >> the EU was a US Project

      If you dig down you’ll find that the CIA was trucking money in, they had a Budget to do this from 1952. Then the Ford Foundation weighed in, along with other power-mad US do-gooders . . .


  24. steviefinn July 16, 2016 at 1:51 pm #

    2008 and all of that.

    I for one am sorry that the European dream has become very sour & perhaps but for the financial crisis & the fully fledged implementation of Neoliberalism which led to the present situation, perhaps it might have worked Maybe it still can in a sense, but I don’t think it will continue as an entity without the further destruction of democracy & the application of shackles that will by necessity come with that.

    Somebody once said that we don’t fear the unknown, we fear the loss of the known, but it now seems that many are willing to take a chance on that, as their known is becoming something they would rather no longer know. Maybe in terms of the latest French atrocity this is summed up by the outrage caused by the statement by some French Minister that the French will have to live with terrorism. Something which is probably easily said by someone who will most likely not be worried by seeing a person of Middle Eastern appearance driving towards them in a truck & what might happen to their kids if they go to concert. A situation that will be made worse by the increasing of the governments efforts to justify their actions in terms of military strikes & crackdowns on civil freedoms, which involves ramping up this fear.

    I think it’s a pity that the German elections cannot come sooner, as it seems to me that Dr. Schauble’s Ordoliberalism is mainly running the whole show. According to the polls they could be ousted, particularly it seems to Merkel having shot herself in the foot due to the refugee crisis. I imagine that they wont take kindly to it if it happens, but i think they are the main reason that the EU would be very hard to reform. Brexit it seems is the main hope due to the chaos here ? to persuade the Austrians that they should not vote for someone that the EU was formed to prevent, while the central banks it seems are now thinking of helicopter money as the latest rabbit to pull out of their hats.

    NATO’s insistence on poking the bear does worry me greatly especially if Clinton gets the job ( although in terms of what Trump would do, who the hell knows ? ), but maybe with the continuing tensions in the South China seas, she might be busily over extended with that & of course the hellhole formerly known as the Middle East. Of course even this lot is only part of the whole story ” May you live in interesting times “, goes the old Chinese curse.

    • Old Smeg July 16, 2016 at 6:15 pm #

      >> May you live in interesting times

      I always felt that this was a blessing, and have used it many times in that sense. Oops.


      • steviefinn July 16, 2016 at 7:58 pm #

        I suppose that it is one of those things within which it is hard to find a happy medium. Kennedy used the phrase in the 60’s during the Cuban missile crisis in a decade that by all accounts was very interesting for many. The interesting is becoming hard to keep up with as almost everyday something major hits the headlines & perhaps it is just my over active imagination, but I sense that there is increasingly a loss of control of events, leading to a state of constant crisis management, especially in the EU,

        This I imagine might also increasingly become the case in a post Brexit UK, which in itself is also very interesting, as is the rise of nurse Ratched in the US. The latter however, which in my opinion carries with it the possibilty of everybody except the control elite cockroaches down in their hidey holes being vaporised by ICBM’s, perhaps illustrates the ultimate sting within the tail of the curse.

  25. Salford Lad July 17, 2016 at 4:21 pm #

    A little off topic but Turkey and the EU and the flood of refugees are connected.

    This coup in Turkey does not compute, A military coup follows a tried and trusted formula.

    1.Take control of the Parliament Buildings with ALL Govt members in session, thus effectively silenced
    2,Take control of all forms of communication,TV, Radio stations, newspapers,
    3. Control all Security service and Govt buildings to prevent counter coup.
    4. Impose Martial law on the streets and a curfew.
    5. Control all transport hubs, airports, rail and roads to limit movement of a counter coup.
    6. Broadcast on all tv and radio channels a calming message by a Senior Frontman to citizens that the coup is in their interests and normal freedoms to be re-instated after a short period.

    None of the above was effectively carried out This leads me to question CUI BONO.
    Erdogan gains by jailing all opposition.,journalists, 2745 judges and senior military. This appears to be a pretend coup to give Erdogan power to eliminate all opposition and effectively impose a dictatorship.

    • Roger Lewis July 17, 2016 at 4:31 pm #

      Hi Salford Lad a classic false flag, some spook appeared on Radio 4 saying as much, I nearly fell off my chair. Similarly the failure of security in Nice is open to question Gladio and Northwoods deserve a google.

    • Old Smeg July 19, 2016 at 5:17 pm #


      We watched it live as it opened up in the middle of the night..

      My immediate impression was: “WTF are they playing at ? Where’s Mickey ?”


  26. Roger Lewis July 17, 2016 at 4:33 pm #

    https://www.politicalcompass.org/uk_eu_referendum2016 excellent analysis here on the multi faceted and contradictory nature of the Brexit question.

    Take the compass test, its a lot of questions but you are rewarded with a nice little TIFF to print out if you want it.

    Heres mine -8.51 almost off the scale bloody lefties.

    • steviefinn July 18, 2016 at 7:40 pm #

      Glenn Greenwald quote from this article & how the elites have only got themselves to blame :

      “Brexit….could have been a positive development. But that would require that elites…react to the shock of this repudiation by spending some time reflecting on their own flaws, analyzing what they have done to contribute to such mass outrage and deprivation, in order to engage in course correction…

      Instead of acknowledging and addressing the fundamental flaws within themselves, they are devoting their energies to demonizing the victims of their corruption, all in order to de-legitimize those grievances and thus relieve themselves of responsibility to meaningfully address them. That reaction only serves to bolster, if not vindicate, the animating perceptions that these elite institutions are hopelessly self-interested, toxic, and destructive and thus cannot be reformed but rather must be destroyed. That, in turn, only ensures that there will be many more Brexits, and Trumps, in our collective future.” (“Brexit is only the latest proof of the insularity and failure of western establishment institutions”, Glenn Greenwald, The Intercept)


    • Old Smeg July 19, 2016 at 5:34 pm #

      >> Take the compass test

      Well Roger, having given GCHQ plenty of ammo,
      it seems I’m on your tail at -7.5 on the centre-line.

      Sort-of a left-wing staus-quo’er ?


  27. roger July 19, 2016 at 6:35 pm #

    Hi Graham,
    slightly more concerned about cia death squads than GCHQ

    both my grandfathers were members of the communist party in the 30´s Graham, skipped a generation though being from Welsh Mining stock a good few Labour Voters were in my parents brothers and sisters but the Communism skipped their Generation It came back to me as Left Anarchism though. I am Very much of the Bakunin and kropotkin school and intend to grow old disgracefully as an Anarchist Hippy Green, they are pretty tolerant of me here in Sweden though Graham, and democratic socialism still has a pulse here at least.Also Greens are part of our current government.

    the neo liberals keep attacking our democracy here but the people are pretty wily,

    still a hugely popular tune here and one of my Swedish favs,

    heres our bands version in an early rehearsal

  28. Dr Doabit July 19, 2016 at 10:44 pm #

    Hi David,

    Most of my friends are foreigners originally.

    I voted out though.

    So did they.

    My Asian friends families etc must get visa to come here but yet some guy who can’t speak English, doesn’t smile or be polite can get in his mates car and just turn up.

    This I’m fed up with.

    If Sanjay is expected to learn language and have some skills so should Gustav.

    That’s fair not racist.

    More people think that than just the 51%

    • roger July 20, 2016 at 6:36 am #

      Hi Doabit,

      I think what you say is also true here in Sweden where I am a migrant. I am a White Middle class Brit (Welshman) my Swedish is very poor but I know I have a much easier time than my Syrian friends here many of whom are making a much greater effort than I have had too. I think that it is a racist thing and aimed against people based on skin colour and not quite a few cultural and religious aspects of identity many of which are simply not noticeable in external appearances , certainly not skin colour.

      On immigration I find that thinking in terms of how many loaves of bread can be fed with one loaf. Of course 1 family unless you have Jesus and a miracle when the answer is 5000. As we do not have miracle the limits of social and economic infrastructure must come into the equation.

      The other answer to fear of weak status being undermined but new comers is to strengthen workers and citizens rights and apply these to all residents in all host countries. This is counter to the don´t let them have our benefits argument and takes longer to give an explanatory context. The context is the same as the one for Citizens Income and all arguments against the Austerity lie. This is the right place to find out all about that ´´Bollocks´´


      I am going to see about getting an order fulfilment service with profits going to the greed party for a #David Malone T shirt with Never mind the Bollocks heres the Green Party printed on the front, with #Malone4Leader under that.

  29. Patrica July 21, 2016 at 11:14 am #

    Do you think we could have a discussion about immigrants and our concerns or lack thereof and not mention the words ‘racism’ ‘xenophobia’ or ‘culture’. Those words stop a discussion immediately they are uttered. Sometimes I think that is the point of them but I do think immigration should be able to be discussed. It is of concern here in New Zealand and from what I have been told, was the main reason for people voting for Brexit in England. Surely such a discussion could include the number of immigrants per year or whether there should be no restrictions, the value of integration and/or assimilation. Whether or not Government should be involved with placing people in specific areas, providing houses and guaranteeing jobs and how that could be done. Or should it just avoid being involved at all.
    To start off. My thoughts lean towards integration and not assimilation, which means restriction on numbers and the placing of immigrants in smaller towns where they can be supported by the locals. The Government should provide jobs and houses. (Of course that requires much more Government involvement than we currently have. For instance it would require businesses to relocate or be created in those areas. That could be done through tax incentives.) it has been done here before. In the 1950s.
    I think everything relating to immigration can be boiled down to money though. If a citizen sees their life style being affected by a lot of people being able to enter the country and willing to do jobs at a very low hourly rates, and they do, notwithstanding a minimum wage, or being able to buy a house whether they live here or not and paying a price a New Zealander cannot afford then one of those forbidden words are spoken and that is understandable. So in my view Government must step in and make decisions for the common good of all the people in the Country. If they don’t all I can see is trouble.

    • Old Smeg July 21, 2016 at 10:43 pm #

      Hi Patricia –

      I’ll throw in a few thoughts and brave the brickbats after.
      Generalisation rules apply –

      I have an engineering attitude and a thick skin. We need more simple maths in Gov. affairs – that is, how those grown-up schoolkids determine our fates.

      Some things need to be identified. If not, a debate about ‘stuff’ at the point of a gun or a knife is too late. Political correctness and ‘uman rites’ will finally cause the collapse of our ‘society’.

      The recent wave of murders and stabbings across europe should tell us something.
      If this was a posse from Chelmsford, they would be banged up before I got to the end of this Post. White peeps can get jailed for bad-mouthing. Black peeps can kill and get counselling and uman rites treatment. A pregnant cat is not uman rites. (This is not a joke.)

      Just as every single Jewish person is a lobbyist for Judaism, every single Muslim is a lobbyist for violence. Read the Koran. 14% of that social group would not turn in a terrorist from their midst. Apply the Bell-Curve maths to this – or a tad of common sense, even – and you will find a significant % of Muslims are actually sympathetic to that cause. If the Muslim community cannot inhibit the violence of its members, they should all be held liable. The problem is, they don’t WANT to inhibit that violence.

      >> … Government should be involved with placing people in specific areas,
      >> … the placing of immigrants in smaller towns
      You can place them where you like. They will eventually ‘clump’ in Ghettos because that is in the nature of their societies – they are an intensely communal group. A nice gaff in a country village is the last thing they want. Take a look at any Black person on the street; they’re almost always on the phone. This is clearly a community-oriented need. (Now I identified this it may begin to obsess you …) Check out any urban street corner.

      >> everything relating to immigration can be boiled down to money

      Wrong. Cultures don’t mix – why should they ? A recent Post hereabouts linked to the asertion that Muslim communities want to remain isolated. That is my experience.
      I don’t even want Scots or Irish or Welsh near me. It’s not personal, I just prefer the people I GREW UP WITH. It’s about expectations, about the cultural soup that I am immersed in. Not Racism, Homophobia, or anything else – I have Black, Brown, Polish, Hungarian, Czech and Homosexual friends – (american even but don’t tell anybody) – I treat them all exactly as I find them. As we all should. Unfortunately, the Muslims I know do not have my best interests at heart, culturally, financially, or philosophically …

      Brickbats. Bring ’em on . . .


  30. Patrica July 22, 2016 at 12:32 am #

    Perhaps you are just having me on Old Smeg but if what you are saying is common then God help us. I just don’t feel as violent as you do Old Smeg. I think most people of whatever race or religion want a good life for themselves and their families and we vote a government in who, we think, will provide that for all of us. We know we cannot do it alone. Unfortunately most Governments are wolves in sheeps clothing. If I want to blame anybody I do blame the media who vilify a group based on the actions of individuals. There are few black people here so I can’t comment about them being on the phone but I see that most young people are!! Should I hate them Old Smeg? The Muslim people I know are just as horrified by acts of violence by Muslims as I am about acts of violence by Christians. But surely the religion of a person is irrelevant. It is the violence that is wrong.
    Most small towns here are intensely communal and they welcomed new comers in the past and I am sure they still would. Yes, ghettos form because of a need and if you let a large number of people come without the support they need, ghettos will immediately form.

    • Old Smeg July 23, 2016 at 7:45 pm #

      Patricia –
      I like your writing style, it’s very thoughtful and balanced.

      The subjects we address would need more than an encyclopaedia to deal with properly. This is one of the problems with attempting to run a country. In the absence of a Solomon, or a benign dictator, any such venture is doomed to result in a form of chaos. Anarchy, actually. Even if you managed to run it in a most excellent fashion, the flaky mores of the ingrates would inevitably lead you to the gallows. The problem – one of many – is the iniquitous ambition of the average uman. It wasn’t so bad back when we were all too busy working to revolt, but since the dawn of the post-industrial age we all became Mobile Publishers and glimpsed the promises of entitlement, the short bursts of ‘fame’ or notoriety among our peers, the insane pursuits of ‘being all you can be’ – well, it’s all gone out of the window.

      This is where I’m coming from: I’m old. Grumpiness is cumulative.

      Naah. that’s not it.

      There are things that are right, and things that are wrong. Because I’m old, I saw many things that were clearly wrong turn out to BE wrong. Because nowadays we live in a changed world, one being hollowed out by a parasitic layer that could be defined as ‘entre-preneurs’ -lit. between-takers – and being unable to continue to function as before, that world is now defined entirely by the things that we DON’T want, instead of what we ACTUALLY want. There isn’t enough equity to properly run our societies and provide adequately for the populations.

      In the UK, ideology is touted as the reason for political decisions. WE the PEOPLE DON’T want to privatise the NHS – the jewel that is envied around the world – but it’s being done. What actually happens is, fat contracts are handed out to corporations (Gove ? Who he ? ) who then fork over fat chunks of cash to ‘foundations’ run behind the scenes by associates of the ‘crat responsible for the destruction of our jewel. This is merely one facet. There are too many facets to list on this page. I had to give up reading Private Eye about 10 years ago because 30 years reading about the trails of greed, corruption, bribery, fraud, theft, violence, blackmail and simple negligence had warped me permanently. And these were merely the sections on government.

      I could write for a further 3 hrs about the mixing of culchas. You would probably not benefit from this, even if you took any of it at face value. What does it matter to you that, in 1966 I discussed Race with young members of families from the Indian sub-continent, in my home town. I discovered, the green 18 yr.-old that I was, that they simply saw me and my race as a vehicle to be exploited by their superior working fire-power, They were prepared to sleep in split shifts, wearing each other’s shoes to go to their working shifts. Hard work is an admirable pursuit, so how could I argue that us lazy Brits would prefer that they ease off a bit and leave some gravy in the pot for us ?

      After a couple of years I would go to work, and watch with puzzled interest as gangs of 4 or 5 Indian girls were chauffered to work at the plant by Dad in the Mercedes. This was the late 60’s, remember. I had never seen a Merc. Were they emancipated ? Did they have any rights ? Nope. They were part of a hive philosophy, much of which can be discovered today if you care to drill down into the communities. There ar taxi firms in my local town that run day and night with ONE Taxi, ONE Driving Licence, and FOUR drivers. (Maybe even ONE pair of shoes … !) (That’s a joke.) (I kno you’re not from around here …) They out-bid, out positive-discriminated, and out-paced us in the work-place, relegating us to the state of passive host-bodies.

      No time or space left. Next Episode: Brexit . . .


      • Patrica July 24, 2016 at 3:29 am #

        I have been doing a bit of gardening and thinking about what you said Old Smeg. I still think that what you are describing is a family (a group) trying to better themselves. That is their way. It is different. And perhaps better than our way. Can we not learn better ways when we see them? But it reminded me of when my grandfather and his friend came to New Zealand in 1910. The two men came together – alone, their families stayed in Yorkshire. They lived together and helped each other find jobs. When they saved enough money they brought their families out. They all lived together and saved enough money to buy two sections side by side. They then saved enough to build one house, all living together in that one house and saved for the other to be built. Yes, they both had mortgages. That was in 1915. The two men were conscientious objectors and in 1917 were imprisoned for their beliefs. Now, old Smeg how do your Indians differ from my grandfather? Maybe both your Indians and my grandfather and his friend realised the power of the group. We cannot do things alone. Individualism has a price.

        • steviefinn July 24, 2016 at 12:09 pm #

          I do not think there is any difference except cultural Patricia. I remember back in the seventies & early eighties when i worked on a road construction project, getting to know the Irish lads who for the most part lived in hostels & sent most of their money home to families – a lot of them were capable of doing a lot more than pick & shovelling.

          I also would do labouring work for temp agencies especially around Christmas to boost income, some of which was within the still then large pottery industry. I worked on quite a few different ” Potbanks ” & the one thing that was constant was that the hardest job in what was called the ” Clay End “, was carried out by Pakistani’s, who worked very long shifts, but from what I was told, eventually left to set up small enterprises.

          I don’t think anyone should be blamed for trying to better their situation, i just think the problem now is that unlike then, for your uncles, the Irish or the Pakistanis there was plenty of slack in the system, which unfortunately due to economic mismanagement is no longer the case. This has led to the former mainly tolerant attitudes being replaced by an ever growing resentment, which I think unfortunately in human terms is & should be understandable – kind of one of those you have to be there sort of things.

          • Patrica July 24, 2016 at 11:32 pm #

            That is interesting StevieFinn. The lack of “slack in the system” is probably true. Whether the removal of that was deliberate we will never know but what we do know is technological advances will replace many many jobs and I do not think it is being a Luddite to say that unless we think of a way to minimise the effect of that then the situation is going to get a lot lot worse. Or is all this just the ramblings of an old woman!!

          • steviefinn July 25, 2016 at 10:47 am #

            More ramblings from a grumpy old man :

            Yes Patricia, robots are another factor which it seems will cut into middle class jobs as well as those of the usual suspects. It is the young I feel for most in comparison to the situation when I was was taking that state for granted. We had free education, proper training for trades, jobs for life were still a possibility, good public housing & reasonable house prices which all provided access to the steps on the ladder if you wanted or had the capability & ambition to climb them..

            The bottom rungs have been removed as the gap between those that are left ever widens, with the ladder’s base becoming evermore like quicksand.

  31. steviefinn July 22, 2016 at 9:01 pm #

    Kind of O/T but something that I think is at the root of the lessening of tolerance by those who are scrambling for the ever decreasing crumbs that fall from the growing cake on the high table. This for me confirms my suspicions of how the Central bankers have increased inequality & increasingly painted themselves & the rest of us into an unknown dark corner. It is based on a report from the BIS with their classic understatement helpfully I think, highlighted :


    • Patrica July 24, 2016 at 4:19 am #

      Yes, interesting website. Obviously giving the Reserve Banks independence way back in the 1980s was not a good idea. It relieved the Government of responsibility and now we are all in for one God almighty mess. The main trouble is so few of MPs understand how the finance system works so they are glad they are out of it. Of course the language economists use is designed to confuse and make the general public think that they, the economists, are just so so clever when in reality it is no different from when priests took their masses in Latin or when lawyers used Latin phrases to describe certain matters.

      • steviefinn July 24, 2016 at 11:47 am #

        Yes they are very much akin to a priesthood citing from their holy book in a language that seeks to confuse & also I think to deter the asking of awkward questions. One thing that particularly struck me was that their predictive models do not include banks & money. Speaking as a layman, I would consider that this is a bit like trying to calculate the performance of a car without taking into consideration the engine & it’s fuel.
        Of course the reality is that as long as their scripture profits the governing elite, they can expect to be the well rewarded & preferred voices of wisdom at court. I cannot fathom the possible long term benefits or otherwise of MMT, but at least Steve Keen appears to live in the real world, seems like a nice guy & his models make sense as has been shown by his predictions, unlike the establishment preachers who were well exposed as a bunch of careerists hoors ( Irish spelling which denotes those who purposely sell themselves & not those who have to ) as exposed in the film ” Inside Job “.

        • roger July 24, 2016 at 8:25 pm #

          ´This isn’t an education: it’s a nine-grand lobotomy.´neo liberal economics education in a nut shell

          2011- London- “There is no correlation between ethics and economics”- Lord Kalms’ letter to the Times (08/03/2011):

          Ethics boys

          Sir, Around 1991 I offered the London School of Economics a grant of £1 million to set up a Chair in Business Ethics. John Ashworth, at that time the Director of the LSE, encouraged the idea but had to write to me to say, regretfully, that the faculty had rejected the offer as it saw no correlation between ethics and economics. Quite. Lord Kalms, House of Lords

          Looked out this old Stanley Kalms ditty the other day I think he mentioned it on his desert island discs, which is where I first heard of it.

    • backwardsevolution August 9, 2016 at 2:40 am #

      Stevie – I like the last few lines of the BIS article:

      “As the central bank’s policy room for manoeuvre narrows, so does its ability to deal with the next recession, which will inevitably come. The overall pressure to rely on increasingly experimental, at best highly unpredictable, at worst dangerous, measures may at some point become too strong. Ultimately, central banks’ credibility and legitimacy could come into question.”

      Notice the adjectives: increasingly experimental, high unpredictable, dangerous.

      I like what Patricia had to say: whoever sets interest rates should be someone that the public can vote out, and definitely should not be someone beholden to the banks, as is the case now.

  32. Mike July 26, 2016 at 12:30 am #

    David, great to have you back in print. I often wondered what you’d have made of the whole Brexit debate and as usual your articles are a great read and insightful.

    I fundamentally agree with pretty much all you say here and Market v Society is such a good way of putting it.

    What i cant get my head around is the nature of the vote. The (especially the English) working class vote backed Brexit in record numbers, but for what i think are quite right wing reasons (immigration, pulling money out of the EU etc). It generally wasn’t about spreading the wealth or the good of the common man and it wasnt to set up a socialist state.

    Do you (open to the floor..) think its the case that the working classes have moved to the right or am i missing something?

  33. Salford Lad July 26, 2016 at 1:59 am #

    The Brexit vote was a two finger salute to the Establishment , not just by the working class, but also the middle class.
    The writing is on the wall for neo-liberal and austerity policies and peoples attitude is ,it cannot get worse ,in or out of the EU.
    A whole new paradigm is required and the present system needs to be destroyed, Brexit was just a gentle push in that direction.

  34. Roger Lewis July 26, 2016 at 8:56 am #

    Hi Mike, I think Salford Lad is right Left RIght today in Establishment terms is an illusion of choice and makes no difference. The Vote can be seen as many things and is different for each individual although painted in the broiadest main stream narratives as Populist Xenophobia. This Narrative is the establishment doing a dis-service to voters and insulting the Intelligence of we plebs. Social Democracy is a Broad church of all shades of Left and Right and Social Democracy is not Acceptable to Neo Liberalisms creed. Democratic Socialism is a left wing thing and something we have had here in Sweden and it is watered down now to the extend that we border on mere social democracy, Germany has a strong Social Democratic tradition as well.
    SOicla Democracy has been dismantled by British Governments in the UK from Callaghans Labour all the way through to Theresa Mays Tories. Started with Healy and his taking orders from the IMF and through to the ERM asnd of course post Big Bang in the City in the 80’s the UK adopted an agressive FInancialised Capitalist model of the US.

    People have noticed and Neo Liberal tactics for underm’mining Labour RIghts and hastening the race to the bottom for all but the Capitalist Class have been well and truly outed. The Capitalist CLass and its lackey’s of course offer up scape goats and binary polarised Narrativers to hide the real reasons for the burdens the people are suffering under.

    My thinking lately has moved when the sleeping giant of a peoples movement will awake in the UK to how to direct the energies and righteous anger of that movement into effective non-violent protest. Already Agent Provocateur activity has increased by the organs and blunt instruments of the Deep State. As David has said in the Past our job is to win the peace, beofre those dark forces plunge us into War the panacea that cures all Democratic ills.

    • Mike July 26, 2016 at 11:10 pm #

      Thanks Roger/Salford, very interesting.

      So (trying to) follow the logic through, the plebs, who were unhappy with the state of affairs, realised they couldn’t hurt the establishment/big business at the general election (as labour and tory were effectively the same thing), took their chance at the referendum, but in the process further empowered Westminster, the place they have had the least success in influencing?

      I get your point about Social Democracy being a mixture of right and left, but to me it really felt like the working class jumped to the right (in England’s case anyway) during the referendum. There weren’t many social democratic arguments for Brexit being put forward (that i saw anyway).

  35. Salford Lad July 26, 2016 at 5:22 pm #

    Hat tip to Craig Murray blog.

    The Establishment will always attempt to characterise any root challenge to its hegemony and ideology as violent, xenophobic, racist, atavistic and subscribing to appalling beliefs and behaviour.
    The theme of challengers as’ Ignorant Barbarians’ runs through history.
    We see it every day in the MSM,especially against Jeremy Corbyn and the Labour Party.
    It will continue for some time.
    The good news is, the Establishment are seriously rattled. Alternative social media such as this, is making a large dent in there propaganda meme.

  36. Dillon Taylor July 26, 2016 at 11:06 pm #

    I think this blog post discusses the main reasons for voting leave rather well.


    As much as the news tried to paint immigration as the biggest concern there has been a lot of ill will building up against the political establishment at how little has been done to address the economic and social issues facing people outwith the London bubble. I think the remain campaign was a bit naive in expecting facts to win debates in the post truth political climate we are currently living in.

    • Mike July 26, 2016 at 11:59 pm #

      Interesting read. The article linked in the first comment also worth a read.


      • backwardsevolution August 9, 2016 at 2:16 am #

        Mike – that was a really good article. Thanks for posting it. Upside, downside – puts it in perspective. What worries me is war. On the possibility of more war (maybe with Russia), I see an upside with Clinton, a downside with Trump. Thanks.

    • roger July 27, 2016 at 9:52 am #


      The analysis of the results of the Great British Class Survey of 2013, a collaboration between the BBC and researchers from several UK universities, contended there is a new model of class structure consisting of seven classes, ranging from the Elite at the top to the Precariat at the bottom.[10] The Precariat class was envisaged as “the most deprived British class of all with low levels of economic, cultural and social capital” and the opposite of “the Technical Middle Class” in Great Britain in that instead of having money but no interests, people of the new Precariat Class have all sorts of potential activities they like to engage in but cannot do any of them because they have no money, insecure lives, and are usually trapped in old industrial parts of the country.

      Hi Dillon the article you link is interesting and the charts tell part of the story. On the question of ´Post Truth´in politics, I am very suspicious of this linguistic device it is ill defined. Post denotes after a period of what? which period when and what was the period before Ín Truth´? Truth brings us to the oldest philosophical dichotomy Truth Belief and knowledge. SO we have a measurement on a continuum, before during and after Truth? and a vector of Truth Belief and Knowledge, knowledge famously being where the two overlap i.e known prove-able truth is knowledge. Are we in a post Knowledge period more precise I think would be to say we are still in a political spin period but the effectiveness of the spin and therefore the conflation of Spin and belief claiming truth and knowledge is not working. I like the idea that the political paradigm is changing and the Establishment are as ever fighting it even where they see it.

    • Roger Lewis July 27, 2016 at 10:11 am #

      https://www.theguardian.com/money/2016/jul/27/uk-joins-greece-at-bottom-of-wage-growth-league-tuc-oecd UK joint bottom of real wage fall table since 2008.

  37. Pat H July 27, 2016 at 6:09 pm #

    Good article on Brexit by John Lanchester in the LRB: http://www.lrb.co.uk/v38/n15/john-lanchester/brexit-blues

    ‘If I had to pick a single fact which has played no role in political discourse but which sums up the current position of the UK, it would be that most people in the UK receive more from the state, in direct cash transfers and in benefits such as health and education, than they contribute to it. The numbers are eerily similar to the referendum outcome: 48 per cent net contributors, 52 per cent net recipients. It’s a system bitterly resented both by the beneficiaries and by the suppliers of the largesse.​’

    • Roger Lewis July 27, 2016 at 7:40 pm #

      Hello Pat H,

      Its an interesting Article, the quo’te you choose is also interesting in that, To Quote our Host Here is Begs A very important question vis your Starting assumptions on ‘a system bitterly resented both by the beneficiaries and by the suppliers of the largesse.​’

      I refer to the exhorbitant privelidge to create money , both the Euro Dollars the Article mentions but does not trouble itself with analysing least of all understanding.

      The article is firmly in the hackneyed old territory of Taxes being re distributive , they do not need to be and as a policy tool they are infact at most a regulation valve for Aggregarte demand.. On Money creation, complete silence.

      To Wit this is a very good article on the Swiss Citizens Income referendum.

      ”However, the nearly universal misunderstanding of money is a major obstacle. For too long we’ve allowed a small coterie of bankers and “court economists” to hold the secrets and “tutor” us. So, it’s time for total openness.
      First, regarding the claim that the Swiss proposal would’ve been too costly, what’s entirely omitted from the discussion is that the proposal (and similar proposals elsewhere) appear to call for re-distribution of existing money—taking money from certain sectors through taxation and re-allocating it to the people at-large.
      The implication is that the money supply is basically static and that re-distributing limited funds would require tough budget decisions—sparking tax hikes and associated spending increases in several areas; hence the claim “costs too much.”
      But a successful basic-income plan can and must be based on the creation of new money, or “distributism,” not on reshuffling existing money, which is “re-distributism.” That’s the “state secret” that no one wants to touch.”

      So Pat, lets look at Mendacity again , a monopoly on Economy with the actualite is not solely with the Leave campaign , the whole of Mainstream political discourse and Political Economy in the west is founded on one bib big lie. That is the lie that Money means something concrete, more concrete than thin air that is.

      Marx also gets short shrift in the article, well Marx coined the phrase Primitive Accumulation, it goes back to the Enclosures and another subject our Host is very knowledgable upon. One of the Big Voices in all of this back then when people knew about self provisioning was Thomas Pain, he said this when he advocated a basic income guarantee to all US citizens as compensation for “loss of his or her natural inheritance, by the introduction of the system of landed property” (Agrarian Justice, 1795).

      SO lets challenge some starting assumptions here the article is in the TINA school and back to school the writer needs to go perhaps some lectures from the Marxist geographers would have paid some closer attention.

  38. Salford Lad July 28, 2016 at 9:00 am #

    Paul Craig Roberts on the EU, Washington and the CIA, not pleasant reading.


    • backwardsevolution August 3, 2016 at 7:16 am #

      That’s a great article, Salford.

      • Old Smeg August 4, 2016 at 12:50 am #

        Yeah – should be mandatory reading – for educashun.

        I’ve been researching America’s hold over europeans for about 30 years.
        Ya gotta dig down, beneath the surface, read and read and read.

        A malevolent, greedy, malicious, spiteful, power-hungry bunch of over-grown psychopathic badly-educated over-fed over-hyped children.

        They’ve been actively – and there’s no other word – fucking us – for decades.


        • backwardsevolution August 8, 2016 at 7:48 pm #

          Old Smeg – so well put! Another person who sees the big picture!

  39. backwardsevolution July 28, 2016 at 9:29 am #

    Laurie Penny says: “I was born in London. Perhaps the city can secede.”

    Isn’t that what’s happened, anyway? Isn’t that the problem? It has seceded. London voted one way, but the rest didn’t. They are already separate.

  40. backwardsevolution July 28, 2016 at 9:45 am #

    I agree with this brilliant and very funny article by Dmitri Orlov. People have had enough of globalization, the loss of community, culture, sovereignty. They are tired of elites telling them how they should feel, what they should accept, and on and on. The people of the world are starting to fight back and they’re simply saying “Nyet”.

    “The Power of ‘Nyet’

    What’s worse, other countries are now getting into the act. The Americans told the Brits exactly how to vote, and yet the Brits said “nyet” and voted for Brexit. The Americans told the Europeans to accept the horrendous corporate power grab that is the Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership (TTIP), and the French said “nyet, it shall not pass.” The US organized yet another military coup in Turkey to replace Erdoǧan with somebody who won’t try to play nice with Russia, and the Turks said “nyet” to that too. And now, horror of horrors, there is Donald Trump saying “nyet” to all sorts of things—NATO, offshoring American jobs, letting in a flood of migrants, globalization, weapons for Ukrainian Nazis, free trade… […]

    But there is a deeper explanation for them: what ties them all together is the power of “nyet.” A vote for Sanders is a “nyet” vote: the Democratic establishment produced a candidate and told people to vote for her, and most of the young people said “nyet.” Same thing with Trump: the Republican establishment trotted out its Seven Dwarfs and told people to vote for any one of them, and yet most of the disenfranchised working-class white people said “nyet” and voted for Snow White the outsider.”

    There’s a picture of Lavrov and Putin speaking with John Kerry. Orlov says:

    “Above is a photo of Kerry talking to Putin and Lavrov in Moscow a week or so ago and their facial expressions are hard to misread. There’s Kerry, with his back to the camera, babbling away as per usual. Lavrov’s face says: “I can’t believe I have to sit here and listen to this nonsense again.” Putin’s face says: “Oh the poor idiot, he can’t bring himself to understand that we’re just going to say ‘nyet’ again.” Kerry flew home with yet another “nyet.”


    If you read the article and then look at the picture, you might get a chuckle like I did. I just thought Lavrov and Putin’s faces were so funny.

    The point is that people have had enough. NYET!

    • Roger Lewis July 28, 2016 at 12:58 pm #

      Its a very sad but amusing article Backwards Evolution, Putin is no saint in fact he´s just another Oligarch, happily though he is not The US Neo Cons Oligarch. I think there is a similar split in the US Oligarchy itself, not now the old East Coast Gold Standard Oligarchy of Jennings Bryants time and the West Coast Silver Bi-metalists , this time its the FIat Money Oligarchs of Wall STreet against the Oligarchs of Silicon Valley, not qwuite Main Street but with more in common down that Street than Wall Street.

      Quiggley Here.
      ”The tension between Industrial Capital and Financial Capital is highlighted in Tradgedy and Hope and also in Das Capital.
      The Development of Monopoly Capitalism
      Quiggley Here.

      ”This conflict of interests between bankers and industrialists has resulted in most
      European countries in the subordination of the former either to the latter or to the
      government (after 1931). This subordination was accomplished by the adoption of
      “unorthodox financial policies”—that is, financial policies not in accordance with the
      short-run interests of bankers. This shift by which bankers were made subordinate
      reflected a fundamental development in modern economic history—a development which
      can be described as the growth from financial capitalism to monopoly capitalism. This
      took place in Germany earlier than in any other country and was well under way by 1926.
      It came in Britain only after 1931 and in Italy only in 1934. It did not occur in France to a
      comparable extent at all, and this explains the economic weakness of France in 1938-
      1940 to a considerable degree.”

      ANd Marx Here.
      “Talk about cen­tral­i­sa­tion! The credit sys­tem, which has its focus in the so-called national banks and the big money-lenders and usurers sur­round­ing them, con­sti­tutes enor­mous cen­tral­i­sa­tion, and gives this class of par­a­sites the fab­u­lous power, not only to peri­od­i­cally despoil indus­trial cap­i­tal­ists, but also to inter­fere in actual pro­duc­tion in a most dan­ger­ous man­ner— and this gang knows noth­ing about pro­duc­tion and has noth­ing to do with it.” –
      See more at: http://www.debtdeflation.com/blogs/2009/01/31/therovingcavaliersofcredit/#sthash.d4gs1dAX.dpuf
      Marx, Cap­i­tal Vol­ume III, Chap­ter 33, The medium of cir­cu­la­tion in the credit sys­tem, pp. 544–45 [Progress Press] –

      plus ça change, plus c’est la même chose

  41. backwardsevolution July 28, 2016 at 10:03 am #

    A brand new documentary entitled “Clinton Cash” came out on the eve of the Democratic National Convention. Wow! The Clinton’s left the White House practically broke, and since then have amassed (if my memory serves me correctly) approximately U.S. $230 million. Not a bad pay-off for serving your elite buddies so well. The documentary highlights the way the Clinton’s made their money, speaks to the Clinton Foundation. It’s quite the attack on their integrity.

    I don’t know if you can get this free YouTube video in the U.K., but it is a very good watch. It’s one-hour long, and it follows the trail of her State Department business, the money the Clinton’s got for their speeches, and the money that coincidentally landed in their Clinton Foundation. As I said, wow! Hope you can watch it.


  42. backwardsevolution July 28, 2016 at 12:58 pm #

    This is a very good six-minute explanation on immigration and world poverty and, although a bit dated (I believe from 1996), what he says still applies. The speaker uses gumballs to explain the world population (as of 1996) and how, even if the U.S. continues to take in 1 million immigrants a year, it does not even begin to make a dent in the world population. It’s still growing exponentially.

    The main point he makes is the people who inevitably emigrate to another country are the very people who would, if they stayed behind, make their own country great. They are often the risk-takers, the go-getters. But we entice them to our countries because we want cheap labor or more consumers for our businesses, and the country they left is the loser.

    He says that you can’t help the world by taking in more and more people (which just ends up screwing your own country over eventually, as immigrants and their offspring grow in numbers, and you lose your culture altogether. It also puts tremendous strain on infrastructure and jobs, etc.). It is always better to help people where they are currently living – their homeland.


    It always seemed ridiculous to me to bring in more people than you need in the hopes that they will create economic activity (buy a car, rent a flat, buy groceries), which thereby will create more activity, and on and on. It’s like a giant make-work project, except you’re fooling around with people’s lives and monkeying with the natural balance of things. I mean, if you need more people, fine, but just to hopefully accomplish churn seems asinine. Because, if that’s all you’re doing, you can never stop the game. If you do, you will be back to square one – unemployment.

    Why bother? Why is it so much better to have a ton of activity (which just creates more pollution and garbage, constant inflation, urban sprawl) than to have less activity, no or little inflation, less garbage, pollution and pressure on land?

    Can someone please answer that question for me? I have never understood it. It just seems to me to be one big Ponzi scheme, except with people. A perpetual people machine. When do you get off? When every square inch of land is built on?

    And of course, as mentioned by someone above, it never seems to help the existing citizens, but it sure as heck helps the elite. They are who benefit. The elite make a profit off these new immigrants in the form of cheap labor/new consumers for their products, but the taxpayers pay for it. Privatize the profits, socialize the losses.

    • Old Smeg August 4, 2016 at 1:25 am #

      Here in Britain I would be hard-pressed to gather together a few hundred like-minded souls to reiterate British values in some way, because there remains here no sense of community, that having dissipated entirely. Thatcher had something to do with that in promoting the concepts of ‘self’ and ‘entitlement’, making sure that modern Brits are obsessed with themselves alone, but latterly the whole idea of Britishness has been subsumed within multiculti dogma.

      There’s a growing body of … evidence ? … thought ? – see it how you will – that the dilution of the strength of european blood-lines by waves of immigration will reduce the ability – or will – of the peoples to form cohesive groups and at some point attempt even the feeblest resistance to external threats. External threats being any force outside of or unapproachable by those groups. Elites, for example.

      It is the declared aim of a certain minority group to bring this about. You can check out UN Special Representative for International Migration, Irishman Peter Sutherland, who famously said: ‘the EU should ‘undermine national homogeneity.’

      He also says immigration is a “crucial dynamic for economic growth”.
      Posts elsewhere herein deal competently with that old, tired refrain.

      This is a dangerous man in several dangerous positions, including the London School of Economics, where he is able to influence the opinions of hundreds of soon-to-be Opinion Formers. If you care to dig down, you will soon find other examples of this dilution mantra, dating back several decades. I’ve recently noticed that the prime movers in US immigration trends are from this minority ‘private club’, with action taking place even down to street-level placarding by Zealous adherents.

      It’s not my fault. I just relate what’s going on . . .


  43. steviefinn July 28, 2016 at 1:49 pm #

    This I think is a worthwhile read from a Doncaster man, who is well aware of the why & sympathetic to those who voted for Brexit, despite his opinion that at least in the short term it will make things worse for those who voted for it. He touches on the present financial situation, slams the politicians who were & are totally unprepared for a leave vote & slates our gutter press. He also without including the the use of immigration to drive down workers conditions, dares to criticise the PC mantra that immigration is always a good thing.

    He also touches on something that he believes will become a huge problem in terms of open door policy, in that due to warfare, demographics & climate change, there will inevitably be an ever increasing flood of migrants & refugees from North Africa ( his details in terms of Nigeria alone are scary enough ) which will lead to Europe in order to simply survive, will result in total closure of borders.

    Sums up for me why I couldn’t vote for either option, as my head said stay, while my heart said leave – plus the added factor that in an ideal world I wouldn’t want to vote for either camp.


    • Roger Lewis July 28, 2016 at 2:16 pm #

      This tranlasted monologue from President Putin to the Press at the St Petersberg Economic Forum earlier this summer is worth watching hwat he says about the Lie of the Iranian Nuclear threat is very urgent to take on board. He says that The Iranian agreement regarding nuclear monitoring is an achievement of President Obamas but in recognising this as an achievement it exposes the lie vis the necessity for US missile defence systems in Romania. The Encirlement of Russia is a direct provocation and the geo political dangers are very clear but never mentioned by the Western Press which is President Putins point.


      Taking up the Nyet point in Backwards Evolutions post this video adds a broader context with respect to the denial or cognitive dissonace in the US Oligarchies mind set and the mind set of their puppets in the Washington consensus.

    • backwardsevolution July 29, 2016 at 8:29 am #

      steviefinn – that was a very good article. I understand why you were so conflicted. Life is a series of choices, isn’t it, and sometimes you’re damned if you do and damned if you don’t.

      The only thing I can say is there have been times when I’ve been in bad situations, but I continued to be optimistic, carried on in the thinking that things would get better. But in hindsight, I can see that I was only trying to protect myself from short-term pain. So I continued on and guess what, the pain came anyway, just further down the line.

      I still think the U.K. made the right decision. It’s a great country and will do just fine, on its own terms. I think if you had have stayed, you would have ended up losing everything you held dear: your sovereignty, your culture, your soul.

      • backwardsevolution July 29, 2016 at 8:33 am #

        steviefinn – I also love the word you used above when talking about employment: slack. What a great word, describes it so well.

        • steviefinn July 29, 2016 at 1:27 pm #

          I suppose that Brexit vote was a cry of ” Cut us some slack ” – here is a pretty intense article which posits the view that Ordoliberalsim rather than the Neo version is the prime force spinning the web we are all caught up in. He also states that the only way to change things is for the EU to fragment.
          Steve Keen has referred to the Germans as being disciples of the above, but probably it’s best known enforcer Schauble it seems, might be getting a little bit jittery as it seems he spent energy persuading the EU commission to not fine Spain & Portugal for their fiscal naughtiness. Maybe the coming Italian bank problems have something to do with that, with the FT today informing us today that banks in EU stress tests could need 900 billion.


      • Old Smeg August 4, 2016 at 1:39 am #

        Dear B/E:

        You have to understand that Britain – the British – were NEVER really IN the European Coal and Steel Community sorry ! – the Common Market sorry ! – the European Community sorry ! – the European Union . . .

        It’s been a 40-year prison sentence which we never dreamed to hope would come to an end.


  44. Roger Lewis July 28, 2016 at 2:15 pm #

    This tranlasted monologue from President Putin to the Press at the St Petersberg Economic Forum earlier this summer is worth watching hwat he says about the Lie of the Iranian Nuclear threat is very urgent to take on board. He says that The Iranian agreement regarding nuclear monitoring is an achievement of President Obamas but in recognising this as an achievement it exposes the lie vis the necessity for US missile defence systems in Romania. The Encirlement of Russia is a direct provocation and the geo political dangers are very clear but never mentioned by the Western Press which is President Putins point.


    Taking up the Nyet point in Backwards Evolutions post this video adds a broader context with respect to the denial or cognitive dissonace in the US Oligarchies mind set and the mind set of their puppets in the Washington consensus.

    • Roger Lewis July 28, 2016 at 2:36 pm #

      Further interesting developments in the US presidential race. Wiki Leaks says it has further revelations which should lead to Hilary Clintons arrest, Backwards evolutions film link is stuffed with alleged evidence of the corruption rife in the Clinton Foundation and personal business dealings of Bill, Hils and Chelsea and her husband ( All alledged of course and presumption of innocence applies to all including the Political Professional class)

      Whats interesting is the Blaming of either the Russian Federation or China for the leaks , Clintomn is a proven Hawk and it is her WarMongering qualifications which are proven and not the alledged corruption that should worry us most. All wars are In Fact Bankers Wars, and the Wall street connections in this respect are far more worrying than just plain old crony capitalism, which of course is baked into the cake of Capitalism in all its forms.



      This article is of course titled listening to Brexit, and the British Publics vote and experiential motivation to explain the vote. Like Stevie I was not moved to vote in the Referendum My argument being that the US election will determine how British and EU policy, which are both directed from Washington, will be set. At the stage I wrote my blog on the question Bernie Sanders still had a statistical chance of getting nominated.

      The question I ask is this, does anyone really believe Donald Trump is more Right Wing than Hilary in our European terms of reference they are to me both off the scale, but who is more likely to foment conflict abroad?

    • backwardsevolution July 29, 2016 at 9:17 am #

      Roger – thanks for posting that Putin video. I had seen the short version of it, but not this longer one. You can hear the frustration in Putin’s voice. I don’t blame him. I don’t know what the U.S. is trying to pull off here, but provoking Russia with the Ukraine coup, then protesting when Crimea decided to go back with Russia, then calling Russia the aggressors is beyond insane. Russia even got blamed for downing the Malaysian flight, with absolutely no evidence at all, and then Europe, the U.S. and the rest of their puppets put sanctions on Russia. Are they trying to bankrupt Russia all over again?

      Then to position missiles in Poland and Romania is now really backing Russia into a corner. As Putin said, they can easily be changed to nuclear. How is Russia supposed to know the difference?

      I mean, the U.S. has Western Europe under their control, now they’re taking Eastern Europe, the Middle East. Is the game plan to surround Russia and bring them to their knees?

      As Dmitri Orlov said, the U.S. don’t take “no” for an answer. They just keep coming back and back (almost like some of the referendums to join the EU) until you give in. Never happy that you’re level with them, they always want to be one step above.

      This is very worrisome for the world. I worry for my children. If Russia responds to these threats, the problem of Brexit will look very small indeed.

      • steviefinn July 29, 2016 at 12:57 pm #

        I suppose one of the more positive aspects about all of this, is that it seems pretty clear the the Germans don’t want any part of it. Something that is hardly surprising in a been there, done it & got slaughtered in the T shirt sort of way. Not to mention the fact that it is their own back garden. I think I am right in thinking that ” Der Spiegel ” could be counted as a mainstream outlet, but this article I think could have come from ” Consortium News ” & the like & perhaps the very fact that it has been published illustrates that the Germans are pushing against the NATO coke line in BS :


        • backwardsevolution July 29, 2016 at 1:38 pm #

          stevie – that was a great article. Thank goodness saner heads prevailed! What a fall from grace for that Breedlove, but I suspect he won’t lose any sleep over the whole affair. How is it possible that these people ever rise up through the ranks?

          I read that John F. Kennedy had the same problem, hawks with their own agenda trying to work around him re Cuba. Kennedy fired a few of them, and some think that this is why he was assassinated.


          • steviefinn July 29, 2016 at 2:02 pm #

            You are welcome – here is something I have just read which is hilarious in a very black comedy way & features the ghost of Hunter S. Thompson – Fear & Loathing indeed :


          • backwardsevolution July 30, 2016 at 12:41 am #

            stevie – Jeffrey St. Clair is a brilliant writer, killing Hillary not so softly. Biting, sarcastic, but so right on! Very funny, my favorite style of writing. He cuts through the lies with surgical precision. His fourth installment is very humorous too. Here it is:


            Hillary, like Obama, is anything but progressive. Both of them worked against single-payer healthcare (preferring to reward their campaign contributors, the insurance and pharmaceutical industry).

            When Dr. David Himmelstein, a Harvard medical professor and head of Physicians for a National Health Program, sat before her at a congressional hearing and extolled the virtues of a comprehensive, single-payer healthcare system, Hillary said, “David, tell me something interesting.” She could have cared less.


            Faking liberalism. As I said, Hillary is really as far right as you can get.

        • Old Smeg August 4, 2016 at 1:59 am #

          >>> If Russia responds to these threats,

          >> it seems pretty clear the the Germans don’t want any part of it.

          If you watched any German telly, you would be aware that Merks
          and her Homies have, as an internal policy position, defined
          Russia as ‘an enemy’.

          Just sayin’ . . .

      • Old Smeg August 4, 2016 at 1:45 am #

        >> As Dmitri Orlov said, the U.S. don’t take “no” for an answer.

        As in that delightful video clip, of Comrade Obama smirking:

        ‘Sometimes we have to TWIST THE ARMS of a few people to get them to do

        WHAT WE WANT THEM TO DO . . .’

        That’s you, that is. And you – and you . . .


  45. Roger Lewis July 28, 2016 at 2:35 pm #

    Further interesting developments in the US presidential race. Wiki Leaks says it has further revelations which should lead to Hilary Clintons arrest, Backwards evolutions film link is stuffed with alleged evidence of the corruption rife in the Clinton Foundation and personal business dealings of Bill, Hils and Chelsea and her husband ( All alledged of course and presumption of innocence applies to all including the Political Professional class)

    Whats interesting is the Blaming of either the Russian Federation or China for the leaks , Clintomn is a proven Hawk and it is her WarMongering qualifications which are proven and not the alledged corruption that should worry us most. All wars are In Fact Bankers Wars, and the Wall street connections in this respect are far more worrying than just plain old crony capitalism, which of course is baked into the cake of Capitalism in all its forms.



    This article is of course titled listening to Brexit, and the British Publics vote and experiential motivation to explain the vote. Like Stevie I was not moved to vote in the Referendum My argument being that the US election will determine how British and EU policy, which are both directed from Washington, will be set. At the stage I wrote my blog on the question Bernie Sanders still had a statistical chance of getting nominated.

    The question I ask is this, does anyone really believe Donald Trump is more Right Wing than Hilary in our European terms of reference they are to me both off the scale, but who is more likely to foment conflict abroad?

    • backwardsevolution July 29, 2016 at 9:42 am #

      Both Hillary and Trump are off the wall. As far as I can tell, the difference might be that Hillary can be bought, while Trump would be less easily bought. Hillary shows allegiance to her campaign contributors (Wall Street, arms dealers, the military-industrial complex, multinational corporations). Trump shows allegiance to no one.

      Would Trump be influenced by Putin? I highly doubt it. But he is a negotiator, a deal-maker. He would listen, work out a deal, and stick to it. He wants the U.S. to have a strong defensive military, not an offensive one. He questions the need for NATO, which gets bigger by the day, an institution the U.S. uses to give its aggression legitimacy.

      Hillary is a warmonger. She has to be; she’s got to pay back all of her campaign contributors. Of course, the Clinton Foundation might just end up with a small contribution or two from a few of the beneficiaries of war (arms dealers, weapons manufacturers, etc.)

      That the elite hate Trump is telling. Even the neocons are saying they’re going to vote for Hillary I don’t doubt it, they don’t want to see the status quo changed. They’re making too much money off of it.

      I like that Trump wants to look at ending the medical monopolies (where the insurance and pharmaceutical corporations are making a fortune off healthcare, sending costs into the stratosphere).

      He wants to reinstate the Glass-Steagall Act, the Act that was repealed by Bill Clinton (the great progressive that he is – not) and ended up enriching the Wall Street banks because commercial banking (deposits, savings) and investment banking were no longer separated. That meant that if the banks got in trouble, our money was tied up in the mess, and they had to be bailed out.

      But let’s just say that if all he did was stop the wars, that would be worth it. Yes, Trump (from a right-wing party) is more left than Hilllary (from a left-wing party). Everything is upside down. Left is right, and right is left.

      This could go either way. I just wonder, if things start looking good for Trump, whether they will allow him to live.

      • backwardsevolution July 29, 2016 at 10:57 am #

        One last thing. Trump also wants to stop the secretive trade treaties (TTIP and TPP). I think we all know what these treaties entail, as David has done a good job covering them. Get ready for more of our jobs to be shipped offshore if these go through. Hillary Clinton is for these trade treaties.

        • roger July 29, 2016 at 5:26 pm #

          Hi Backward Evolution, I suspect Trump would be no worse than Hilary Clinton, Obama and Bill Clinton are both proven neo liberal to the core and no friends of peace or the common man. Hilary will be no different.

          Trump is no dumber that GW Bush, in fact as one property developer (me ) assessing another he showed much promise and some considerable intelligence in the early part of his career. His survival of the early 90´s does show he is both the Wall street pick in some way ( they could destroy him in a heart beat, All that debt. But also the Mobs Man, those early concrete contracts are telling. Latterly Reality TV whilst profitable seems to have dimmed his light somewhat from a business perspective as regards bricks and mortar, he has also been something of a shit in Scotland.

          All said and done I see Trump as better than Hilary and no worse than the rubbish served up increasingly since JFK, post WW11 the Americans have not really shone but where has anywhere in the Washington Consensus. We had Olof Palme here in Sweden and in the UK social democracy was given a whirl but the US has killed democracy with its insistence on making us all Free. If Trump was to look inwards and have the US mind its own business he would be doing all of us and the people of the US a great favour.

          I like Americans I have many American freinds I abhor Washington and the US state, not all states are as bad as each other but of course the US constitution has been sorely abused since the southern states tried to secede. American Exceptionalism is a madness that has effected us all the sheer hubris and arrogance of its adherents which include Obama and no doubt Hilary , perhaps even trump needs addressing. Exceptionalism is the colonial powers big lie, always has been, the British Empire suffered from it and it was no less a lie in our case, Sweden in days of your suffered from the same thing. Etc.

          Must fly, but as I say BE, Trump may be way the less evil of two Lessers.

  46. backwardsevolution July 29, 2016 at 4:01 am #

    Phil – I posted something above, and was just wondering whether you saw it. I’ll post it again:

    Thank you, Phil. I agree with you wholeheartedly. Internationalists play right into the hands of the neoliberal globalists.

    As you say, the globalists want no borders, no culture, no patriotism, just a global marketplace, because all that matters to them is that you consume their products.

    Imagine the ease of governing for the globalists if, on the one hand, they have a cohesive cultural group to deal with (who can easily gang up on them and vote them out or demand they change their policies) versus many cultures who never really come together, who never form a cohesive group with which to fight back against elite policies. I think they’d vote for the latter, which is what we’re getting.

    The naive (I would call them) internationalists, all open-armed and loving, cannot see that they are being divided by the globalists. They are running full-speed into their trap. Putting on my elite cap for a moment, I’d much rather have a ton of different groups that cannot form against me because they all want different things. That is what I see happening, and yet others appear blind to this takeover through stupidity.

    Am I making any sense here? Do you understand where I’m coming from? Much easier to get away with murder when you’re governing disparate groups of people who never join together.

    I’ll add that I believe this is what keeps the U.S election cycle humming along as usual: the elite keep the groups fighting (blacks against whites, gays against straights, choice against no choice, Muslims against Christians, etc.) Everybody gets locked into a party, totally locked in. The elite make sure that whoever is running for either party would suit their purposes and would not step out of line or wouldn’t harm their fortunes. I mean, look at Obama, Mr. Hope and Change. Not one banker jailed, wars coming out the yin yang, Obamacare, a gift that keeps on giving for the insurance companies. Mr. Progressive turned out to be a con. The one-time senator from Illinois went to a Bilderberg meeting, the elite were assured that he would play ball, and everybody rallied around their man.

    Lots of disparate groups, each wanting their own rights, keep them fighting, divide and conquer. They will never all gang up on you – never! They’re too different.

    • Phil August 4, 2016 at 6:38 pm #

      A perfect assessment.

      • Roger Lewis August 5, 2016 at 8:20 am #

        Hi Phil and BE’ , I have been working on an essay , occasionaly I put together a set of notes which very occasionaly i work into an Essay. At the moment the Labour Leadership Contest along with the commentariats scribblings on the change in Economic policy brought with the Appointment of Theresa May as PM following Brexit has given rather a lot of material which overlaps and which throws up some very interesting contextual contrasts.

        One of the themes on Money and on politics I have been very interested in taking further is that of Plurality. I first had the penny drop on the value of Plurality as a contextual analysis tool studying Chord Melody´s One Chord can have several functions and The same one is usefully and logically named differently, according to its context of Key, root note ascending or descending direction of approach and so on.

        On the labour leadership what struck me Last night in the streamed debate was a very real impression that Jeremy Corbyn was speaking as himself from his centre and that Owen Smith was speaking as his Ego trying to reflect back what he has learned or guesses people wish to hear , or those people he wishes to be liked by, or patronised by and wish to hear.

        The other aspect of it is how they approach Economic policy faced with the step to the Left by Theresa May, I.E questioning the fiscal cap rule in a downturn, using Brexit as an excuse. What strikes me more and more is how Smith and his ilk are pandering to the wishes expressed by a movement in this case Momentum and the wider public sentiment surrounding it. This is a similar sentiment to that of Syrzia in Greece, Podemas in Spain and Bernie Sander/Occupy in the US.

        In A century of Self Adam Curtis tackles this question of politics offering up panaceas to the expressed desires of Target audiences and this version of Consumer politics is what CLinton is offering up in the US and what Owen Smith is now Offering up in opposition to a true believer which I am accepting at face value as that which Corbyn, Sanders and Inglaisis represent Syrzia already seem to have been got at Alexis Tsipras capitualted and Varafoukis resigned. Forradical movements I think the Powers that be like if possible to turn potential problems into controlled opposition first and then when truly tamed we end up with the Likes of Blair and Bill Clinton both exemplars of the in – authentic.


        Curtis ends by saying that, “Although we feel we are free, in reality, we—like the politicians—have become the slaves of our own desires,” and compares Britain and America to ‘Democracity’, an exhibit at the 1939 New York World’s Fair created by Edward Bernays.

        Where Trump fits into this is an open question, what is noticeable is the degree o0f projection that the Media and the Cookie Cutter politiicians impose onto the un ruly ”Populist´,´Demagogue´,ìdealistic´ ( add any of the plethora of re-branding index words here,.)

        On the media I have been struck by Owen Jones in the Guardian and his need to explain himself to those accusing him of all manner of disloyalty, I have made comments on various of his articles recommending Oshi on the true centre, Epictetus on ture propositions being unharmed by mis representations only the believers of the misrepresentation being decieved and harmed and latterly the justaposition of Timonism and Cynicism related back to Diogenes of sinope and his Lamp.
        “Cynics saw what people could be and were angered by what they had become; Timonists felt humans were hopelessly stupid & uncaring by nature and so saw no hope for change.”https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10154414067007138&l=407d0873e0

        This is a bit Rambling hopefully it will all fall into place over the next few days in my own mind. I did want to share the Century of Self doc though, its long but very relevant .

      • backwardsevolution August 8, 2016 at 7:45 pm #

        Phil – thanks. I only wish more people were like you and could see what’s happening. They just don’t see the big picture.

  47. backwardsevolution July 30, 2016 at 4:42 am #

    Roger – yes, I think Trump is the better bet too.

    TRUMP stands for:

    Banking/financial regulation (the banks have got way too much power).

    No or less war/a strong defensive military (only protecting the United States), not an offensive military starting wars all over the world.

    Stopping NATO’s expansion (possibly dismantling it altogether) and favoring negotiation.

    Placing tariffs on goods imported into the U.S. from U.S. multinational corporations who offshore jobs, and then turn around and deposit their earnings in tax havens, without paying any U.S. tax.

    Stopping “illegal” immigration and the temporary foreign worker program (existing workers train the foreign workers, then they get fired!) as this depresses wages for poor and middle-income U.S. citizens, increases rent and house prices (supply and demand), and puts a tremendous strain on U.S. taxpayers (they end up paying for the illegals’ medical and education costs as the illegals don’t pay taxes). The money made off this cheap labor ends up in the hands of wealthy businessmen who pay the illegals less money.

    Looking into the medical monopolies, where huge amounts of money end up in the pockets of the insurance and pharmaceutical industries (the middle men), costing the citizens far too much money for healthcare.

    Temporarily stopping Muslim immigration into the U.S. until authorities can determine an adequate vetting procedure to protect citizens against terrorism.

    Stopping the secretive trade treaties (TTIP and TTP), which, if implemented, will result in many more millions of jobs being offshored, further enriching the wealthy.

    Rebuilding America’s crumbling infrastructure (bridges, roads, tunnels) by taking some of the billions spent on the military and creating good constructive jobs.

    CLINTON stands for: banking/financial deregulation; more war/coups/sanctions/embargoes; NATO’s expansion; free trade/globalization; healthcare monopolies; secretive trade agreements. She loves power and wealth, and is in the pockets of the arms dealers, weapons manufacturers, the insurance and pharmaceutical industries, Wall Street and multinational corporations.

    I read one article by a New York journalist who had been watching Trump’s career over the years, and while he said Trump certainly had his faults, he had never known Trump to be a racist – ever! Trump is only against “illegal” immigration, not “legal” immigration, but feels immigration should be used to fill positions that Americans cannot already fill, not take jobs away from Americans.

    I also do not see Trump being pushed around by Putin – at all! Trump is his own man, and nobody pushes him around. He is a strong negotiator who would rather rebuild the United States than dismantle the rest of the world. He’s a builder.

    As is evident from the documentary “Clinton Cash,” Hillary Clinton can be bought. Beware of people who can be easily bought.

    Just my thoughts.

    • roger July 30, 2016 at 7:08 am #

      Hi Backwards Evolution,

      All of Hilary Clintons faults are on display or soon all if Julian Assange makes good on his promises.

      All of Donald Trumps shortcomings are less public or had been until he decided to be a politician instead of buying / renting them

      Perhaps Trump should have adapted the old adage ´´If it flys floats or fucks rent it don´t buy it´´perhaps ´´if it Lies Votes and sucks rent it don´t be it´´

      I Have poked fun at both Trump and clinton

      To make a people great it is necessary to send them to battle even if you have to kick them in the pants. That is what I shall do. Benito Mussolini.

      Trump is a man of estimable talents no doubt yet Roderick Spode the Invention of P G Wodehouse, based upon Bennitto Mussolini ´Il Duce´is always conjured up by the stage persona of The Donald. This claim comes with both evidence and a warning, if you are a Trump supporter and ever wish to hear your Great Leader speak again without recalling Spode and in turn Mussolini do not click on the following Video. ( brought to you by the time machine mentioned earlier. ´´Too big to bail and one Law for the rich another for the poor´´. As for entertaining the notion that Trump can not be bought? Well you can not buy something that is already owned and Trump is assuredly wned by Wall Street so they have no need to buy him again, although his debts have doubtlessley been Re hypothicated, lets not do Derivatives today though!


      This video is about HotSauce. Hilary Clinton made a lame attempt to get down with the Bothers in Harlem pronouncing Hot Sauce Haat Saaassss yeah. In wales there is a description for in authentic people, it is False as Forty Arse Holes , and she fits the Bill.
      I approve this message lionheart3223

      Anonymous – Hillary Clinton: A Career Criminal
      Anonymous Official


      Robert Johnson – “They’re Red Hot” –
      Speed Adjusted
      nu385 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Blh4ZLKV9Yc

      This is my adapted Anonymous Clinton Video

      Trump as I said is the Evil of Two Lessers, this is not an endorsement I believe he is a Fascist but so are Hilary and Obama, The United states has become the Fascist State that Roosevelt warned against as did Eisenhower and as General Smedley Butler was only to aware was in the designs of the US Oligarchy foiling a coup famously in the 1930´s.

      People in the UK usually limp Nigel Farage Leader of UKIP in with Donald Trump I think this is unfair but also untenable. Politicians in the US are creatures of a very different political Landscape than those in Europe including The UK, The US´s though have effectively been holding the European system to ransom since the early 1970´s to maintain exorbitant privilege as De Gaul described Dollar world reserve currency status. The US State does not have allies it has Vassals and there is a big difference

      The problem with the US presidential pantomime in November is that there is no Virtue in either of the candidates they cling to their Bible paying lip service to a creed they have abandoned surrendering to the Mammon of the US consumerist dream, we all know what George Carlin said about that. The Sad truth is that the United States of America is simply not qualified to fulfil the role that its American Exceptionalist blow hards define for itself in the world The thing about the US is that it has extraordinary opportunities and natural gifts all of which it is squandering it was Rosseau I think that referred to the Bounties of North America as exceptional not as it is had by the Blowhard Neo/cons and Neo Libs and very brainwashed American School child the American peoples as represented by its self entitled and less than impressive or exceptional elites.

      • backwardsevolution July 31, 2016 at 1:26 am #

        Roger – the video above, “Hillary Clinton, Career Criminal”, brings up a lot of things that I had either forgotten about or was too young to worry about at the time. How could anybody be involved in so many investigations? What a couple! You just forget as the years go by.

        And I agree, Nigel Farage is nowhere near Trump. Nigel Farage is funny, classy, intelligent, tremendously well-spoken, and I think one of the U.K.’s real gems. You might not always agree with him, but at least you know that he’s really thought things out. Trump doesn’t even come close to comparing. But I guess, on the other hand, Nigel Farage might find it hard to do what Trump has done. And as off the cuff and poorly-spoken as Trump sometimes is, he does possess some good common sense, as in: why are we starting and fighting in wars all over the world? Why?

        I favor Trump over Clinton just because I feel she is a warmonger and I fear a nuclear confrontation. And she said if she becomes President, she is going to put Bill Clinton in charge of revitalizing the ECONOMY. Can you just imagine that? I can see it now: more donations to the Clinton Foundation, followed quickly by more deregulation; more donations to the Clinton Foundation…rinse and repeat.

        “Ms Clinton said she would put her husband “in charge of revitalizing the economy”, particularly in deprived areas.

        “My husband, who I’m going to put in charge of revitalizing the economy, ’cause you know he knows how to do it,” Ms Clinton told the crowd at a rally in Fort Mitchell, Kentucky. “And especially in places like coal country and inner cities and other parts of our country that have really been left out.”


        Look out!

  48. steviefinn July 30, 2016 at 2:56 pm #

    Scarily interesting :

    ” Facebook and Google seem very powerful, but they live about a week from total ruin all the time. They know the cost of leaving social networks individually is high, but en masse, becomes next to nothing. Windows could be replaced with something better written. The US government would fall to a general revolt in a matter of days. It wouldn’t take a total defection or a general revolt to change everything, because corporations and governments would rather bend to demands than die. These entities do everything they can get away with — but we’ve forgotten that we’re the ones that are letting them get away with things.
    Computers don’t serve the needs of both privacy and coordination not because it’s somehow mathematically impossible. There are plenty of schemes that could federate or safely encrypt our data, plenty of ways we could regain privacy and make our computers work better by default. It isn’t happening now because we haven’t demanded that it should, not because no one is clever enough to make that happen.
    So yes, the geeks and the executives and the agents and the military have fucked the world. But in the end, it’s the job of the people, working together, to unfuck it. ”


    • Roger Lewis July 30, 2016 at 4:35 pm #

      Hi Stevie,

      I have spent the last six months working on Ethereum, Famously the forst Distribited Autonomous Organisation called The DAO which was set up by a Germand company whose main objective was to fund a Software application and hardware Lock funded for mass production. You will find various articles about the Exploit of The Dao, it was not really a hack but an exploit of the code which allowed whats called a recursaive call which drained 45 million Dollars of value from a pool of 135m dollars. As one of the investors in the DAO fund I watched on with interest, but was not at all worried as the Theif was caught red handed, that said the thief or theives did those of us now working with the Ethereum Platform and programming languages a big favour in reminding as all of test bedding our product before releae.

      The article you link too says Ubuntu is just windows Vista with some design changes, this is not actually the case GNU linuxis made up of several parts the Famous Linux Kernel which allso drives many familiar household gadgets but also the plethora of Libraries which were compiled by a man called RichardStallman https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Stallman Stallman is a hero of mine and his story is very inspirational for those of us that believe in Free Software as opposed to Open Software, which is fine,. Free in RIchards definition is to do with transparency in coding and the problem with our computers in most cases ( almost all ) is that most coding is proprietary and controls us so we are not free to modify it or remove aspects of it we find objectionable.

      There are two Distributed computer networks currently arriveing on the scene. One is the IPFS system debveloped in Standford The Interplanetary FIle Sysystem is a peer to peer super computer which exists as a network of 100,000´s of computers the other is SWARM which is being built on the Ethereum network. I am building a complemetary Local currency which will allow a federated system of currencies modeled on WIR bank switzerland to operate imnndependently but also in federation allowing liquid and free exchange of goods with local monies as a unit of exchange but tranferable and backed by regional federated Stores of values at different values on the continuum of Liquidity to Illiquidity. Its early days and the DAO debacle has caused us to extend our timeframes there is very little rush.

      What I am saying is that the Article you link too deascribes a solution which is already happening and the Block chain has got way way beyond Bitcoin and the other Crypto currencies.

      I have a ton, literally of research and links which I could provide if anyone is interested, my own project is not accesible as yet but this early video on you tube gives some idea and basic functionality others have been designing on the platform already.
      People’s Republic of DOUG, economy, real estate, other things.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hS_N_0bGc_Y

      Daniel Nagy: “Swarm: Distributed storage for Ethereum, the Turing-complete blockchain” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_vtxw6nfmQ

      DEVCON1: IPFS – Juan Batiz-Benet

      Richard Stallman on Free Software


      Its all a bit geeky i’m afraid stevie, but this has been my day job since Novemeber.-

      • steviefinn July 30, 2016 at 9:18 pm #

        I will take your word mate on all of that as I am a total ignoramus with this stuff. I just thought that what it was describing was that we in the West especially are hanging much that we increasingly depend on what appears to be a very thin thread, especially internet wise – they can stick their driver less cars, that’s for sure. I also read the other day that all China had to do to bring the US to it’s knees was to cut off the supply of silicone chips – this was from someone who is always spot on in terms of our current situation.

        • roger July 31, 2016 at 8:44 am #

          Hi Stevie,

          A few years back after the Japanese Earth Quake manufacture of Hard Drives took a hit and the price spiked the factory concerned was somewhere in Indonesia? on Silicon Chip and their manufacture here are some maps.


          I think China has or was for a long time kept away from a lot of high tech stuff perhaps that is why there is still a dispered manufacture and supply chain for silicon chips.

          One thing that occurs to me is that it is not what is possible and has already been sufficiently developed to benefit wider society it is the rate of allowed adoption and regulatory acceptance which requires Establishment monopoly blessing.

          Heres some more recent James Burke which is a happy thought on these matters.


  49. NeverReady August 3, 2016 at 1:12 pm #

    Why on earth would you want to support an ailing, corrupt and undemocratic organisation such as the EU? I would be interested in hearing what you have to say in support of this institution.

    Re; Listening to Brexit.

    The whole of the Britain had a referendum, and there was a result. But some people want to undermine that result, claiming that the result wasn’t, somehow, democratic or legal because of some perceived unfair representation amongst the voting population.

    Scotland had a referendum of it’s own a couple of years ago, and there also was a result. But some people want to undermine that result too, because they are of the opinion that the people who voted didn’t really mean to vote the way they did, and given another chance they would vote differently.

    A few years ago ROI had a referendum, there was a result. But some people thought that the people who voted didn’t understand what they were voting about or for, and so another referendum was arranged, and this time, after a dose of Project Fear, the voters voted and a result was arrived at, but which was different from the original result.

    I’m astonished at how many people who would describe themselves as good, upstanding people promoting democratic values, consistently and continually act to do quite the opposite. I am also astounded as to why they are not called out on this, but are instead encouraged and supported to undermine democracy, democratic values and the law, and this is done because those people think that everyone else is wrong and they’re right.

    Is this the future, General Election results (and all other elections from Town Councillors to City Mayors) continually legally challenged by “injured” parties?

    • backwardsevolution August 8, 2016 at 6:28 am #

      NeverReady – I agree with you. They just keep trying until they get the answer they want. It’s disgusting. Unfortunately, as with all elections, people are told half-truths or sometimes outright lies. You listen to one side, then the other, and you come away not knowing who to believe. What a monolith the EU had become; it took on a life of its own and what a cost you had to pay. I hope they get on with it.

  50. Robin Smith August 5, 2016 at 8:16 am #

    Victim become perpetrator Mr. Malone? I posted this to you several years ago. You did not take up my offer for a dialogue – as your were demanding others did for you. Your approach has not changed in all that time evidently here. Will you wait until you die before you explore that new ground? Read on…

    Golem XIV Author of The Debt Generation is potentially someone with knowledge in support of The Fund. He still believes money is wealth and that it’s root cause of pain, but I have a feeling he may be ready to affirm MeltFund. If he owns a lot of property affirmation will be more difficult:

    Dear Mr. Malone,

    On the matter of having “a debate”, I hear you loud and clear.

    Why is it, when a point of certainty has been reached in “a debate”, that the ones initially calling for “a debate”, suddenly no longer want “a debate” to proceed?

    I’ve spoken many times to Mr Dyson, Mr Jackson, The NEF, over the years and asked them a for “a debate”. They are good guys and try earnestly to satisfy. And when what they discover in “a debate” runs counter to their belief system – their prejudices and what they would like to happen – they no longer want “a debate” to proceed, using the classic defence mechanisms you rightly protest against here.

    Isn’t that interesting. This is the same kind of psychology in defence of a belief system, just on a more intense level. And an attack on whomever wants to proceed with “a debate” – that is, everyone else!

    May I remind you, these one time “debaters” are heavily funded by ‘charity’. I’ve met with the most senior trustee of that charity. He too initially welcomed “a debate” … until I asked him to dig deeper and precisely where to look – to challenge his belief system, prejudices and the vested rights underpinning the charity. This charity is heavily vested in the very same powers your forum and the money “debaters” are challenging with “a debate”.

    Does this tell you anything important? I have a challenge for you. To ask you, Mr Malone, for “a debate”. I’ll ask the same simple question I’ve been asking Mr Dyson for 5 years:

    “Imagine banking and the money were made a model of purity and thrift. Who then would collect the economic rents of nations, if it were no longer the banks. And then, qui bono?”

    Would anything important have actually happened?

    Many years ago I watched your superb films on things rationality cannot know about. What we call ‘forbidden knowledge’. What you did there was to help me ‘understand’. A teacher. Thank you.

    Do not take this personally, I’m asking for your current belief system to be scrutinised by “a debate”, the same debate others have declined. Mr. Malone is not currently my teacher because he has got so far in “a debate”… and then stopped. Has your inevitable journey into undiscovered country been denied by Golem too?

    I realise this will be an extraordinary challenge for you and sympathise. If you truly want to have “a debate” please contact me directly on 07786 078836 robinsmith@meltfund.com.

    Robin Smith
    CFO MeltFund

  51. backwardsevolution August 7, 2016 at 2:57 am #

    Maybe you have seen this article before, but it’s on hydrid wars. Not your conventional war, but how foreigners use the power of crowds to bring about coups and the ousting of a leader they want to get rid of. Color revolutions using protest groups, NGO’s, or the use of terrorism. Very interesting article on how it’s done. Most likely responsible for the Arab Spring, the initial trouble in Ukraine and Syria.

    “Still, the essence of using one’s own people against them as militant proxies on behalf of another power is unsettling and will always remain so, because somewhere in the mix of things the targeted authority will be faced with the uncomfortable decision of having to strike back at its own citizens out of self-defense, which is as unnatural for a country to do against “unarmed protesters” as it is for a sibling to strike their own “unprovoked”.

    In both cases, however, things are not as they seem, it’s just the weight of ‘human conscience’ that holds back the defending actor. Nobody wants to feel like “Cain” who mercilessly killed their brother – everyone needs to feel as though there’s some kind of justification for their response. Visually, it might not look like the “protesters” are a threat, and in many cases of legitimate protest, there’s nothing for anyone to fear, neither the state nor the protesters. But when a “protest” becomes cover for a foreign intelligence-organized regime change attempt, and there’s hundreds or maybe even thousands of unwitting and unaware human shields tricked into attending, then the situation is beyond critical and the risks of violence are extraordinarily high.

    In this case, the state will be very reluctant to defend itself and the rest of the non-protesting citizens that it represents (always the vast majority of the population) because it doesn’t want to inflict collateral damage against the human shields, but if provoked to do so because of petrol bombs or other ordinances being used against it by professional provocateurs (urban terrorists/guerrillas, but identified in the US as “protest organizers”), there might not be any choice. It’s just that by the time it takes decisive action, it might be too late to stem the critical anti-government mass that has formed, or the action itself might unwittingly lead to the creation of the very same scenario that the state is trying to avoid.”


  52. backwardsevolution August 7, 2016 at 3:37 am #

    Donald Trump is saying he wants tariffs placed on goods coming in from China to correct the trade imbalance and bring back the millions of jobs that have been lost to China. Of course, a lot of the Chinese exports to the U.S. are from U.S. multinationals who have taken their factories to China, and then ship their goods back into the U.S. market. Now maybe we can understand why so much money is being thrown into Clinton’s campaign by these very same multinationals who do NOT want to see Trump win, and why they are going after him so vehemently. He is an easy target, what with some of the things he says, but sprinkled in among his outbursts is some good common sense.

    “At the beginning of his U.S. tour last week, China’s President Xi met with 650 U.S. business leaders in Seattle. Seattle was a natural place to visit. It is home to the factories of one of America’s largest great export industries – Boeing. It is also a center of America’s tech industry.

    Xi came to woo them. He reassured them that China will not discriminate against foreign businesses. He announced a large new aircraft order, one which came with the customary quid pro quo. Just last week Boeing announced that it will build an aircraft plant in China.

    We’ve seen this script before many times. Just a few months ago, GM made plans to import cars from China for sale in the United States. This follows many years of GM’s ‘collaboration’ with Chinese companies. Without doubt China has acquired much valuable industrial technology from the American firms that located factories in China.

    China is also targeting tech. This week Cisco Systems announced that it would produce computer servers in China, sharing its world-class technology with Chinese server manufacturer Inspur Group. […]

    If trade were to move to balance, the United States would get millions of jobs back.

    But that’s not what the American business community and President Obama want. They want a “bilateral investment treaty” with China so that American companies can make more profits when they build factories in China.”


    Is this what has happened in the U.K. as well? I’m trying to follow the money.

    • Old Smeg August 7, 2016 at 11:58 pm #

      >> Is this what has happened in the U.K. as well?

      Not as stridently. What we continually romance is ‘Inward Investment’ at all costs.
      We seem to think that making jobs is paramount. Osborne was crazy about it.

      But as the Head Honcho of BMW said (on Nite-time news) upon the purchase
      of our Rover Group: ‘But of course, the profits will be reflected in Germany’.

      What is so difficult to understand ? The recent purchase of ARM will …
      cause THE PROFITS to be reflected in JAPAN.

      Preserving ‘jobs’ is not really the point – preserving INDUSTRIES as profit centres
      is the point – something the Mad Cow was unable to comprehend . . .


  53. Salford Lad August 7, 2016 at 12:34 pm #

    We have the ludicrous policy proposed by the failed ex- Chancellor to have the Chinese finance the building of the Hinckley ‘c’ nuclear power station. We also have a £750 million investment in a multi-apartment complex in Salford on my doorstep.
    Even the signs on the site preparation are in Chinese,
    The British steel industry has been affected by this Chinese investment. The UK Govt lobbied against a EU tariff increase from a derisory 13%. This to stay sweet with the Chinese. The US tariff on Chinese steel dumping is 256%.
    Not to mention the construction of 3x tanker ships for the Royal Navy to be delivered from South Korean shipyards soon.
    That is a lot of steel, equipment and jobs that should have been sourced from the UK.
    Many other instances of contracts going overseas are apparent in the Oill and gas industry.
    Britain today is a nation of shopkeepers as foretold by Napoleon, governed by the mentality of shopkeepers

    • Salford Lad August 7, 2016 at 3:10 pm #

      On Saturdays Daily Telegraph, Ambrose Evans -Pritchard expounded on the need to invest in UK infrastructure projects by direct Govt investment, to the tune of a Trillion sterling. He surmises that now that interest rates/borrowing costs are low, this is a good time to stimulate the economy.
      He failed to mention, that it is pointless to invest in infrastructure, if the labour,.material resources and equipment are not of UK origin.
      This sourcing of home grown resources ensures that the wealth effect is distributed and employment created.
      He also omitted to mention, that it is Productive Industry investment that creates wealth and long term employment, with its distributive effect.
      This virtuos cycle is very much similar to that proposed by Jeremy Corbyns Labour Party.
      In economic circles it is known as Overt Fiscal Intervention.
      It would appear that AEP had strayed off the ranch of his handlers. The article was soon pulled from the online edition.
      It would be calumny to suggest there is an alternative to the failed QE policies of Central banks. The peons must be kept in ignorance.
      Central Banks version of capitalism,has failed and it is high time that its high priests of the IMF,World Bank and BIS were consigned to the trash can of history.

    • backwardsevolution August 7, 2016 at 9:58 pm #

      Salford Lad – I really don’t know where this is going to end up, but Ross Perot was definitely right when he said that if these trade deals are signed [and he was referring at the time to the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA)] there would be a “giant sucking sound” of jobs going south, to Mexico. A lot did go to Mexico, but the multinationals didn’t like how religious the Mexicans were (especially wanting Sundays off), so a lot of them moved to China instead.

      He said it will all end when the developing countries wages come up to $6.00/hour and the developed countries’ wages come down to $6.00/hour. Then it will be an even playing field, he said, “but meanwhile you’ve wrecked the country.”

      So they sell out all of our industrial technology and technical know-how (much of it developed through our subsidized universities) to China, and for what? This know-how would have taken China many decades to accomplish on her own, and yet we just hand it over to them, hurting our own countries in the process. Inequality continues to increase, sort of like the road back to feudalism in a way.

      Meanwhile, these multinational corporations get bigger and bigger, buy up smaller companies through mergers and acquisitions, monopolies form, and they strangle us further because you end up having to buy off the “company store”.

      Bush Sr., in his election bid against Clinton back in the ’90’s, wanted to have these trade treaty signings contingent on improved workers’ rights and environmental protections, and Clinton agreed. Of course, after the election the multinationals started to scream, and Clinton quickly changed the terms to exclude these protections. This would have levelled the playing field somewhat if this was done.

      With the current free trade treaties (TPP and TTIP), the issue of currency manipulation is not covered at all. They said it would be…gave some lame excuse. Of course, this is what these countries will do. State-owned enterprises (as they have in China and other countries) are not covered as well. (At least with my current reading). So, in essence, we are competing with countries with no worker rights, no environmental protection, no stipulations against currency manipulation, and it appears they can have all the state-owned enterprises they feel like having. It’s as if we can’t sign them up fast enough.

      Meanwhile, they turn around and dump steel into our markets, and we end up losing jobs.

      Whenever I heard “one-world government” before, I didn’t pay much attention, thought this was a gross exaggeration. But now I am not so sure. You can see it going that way.

      There is a ton of money floating around the world at the present, and it seems to be directed in this way. These multinationals (the monied elite) are a government unto themselves, sitting above all of us, and they are dictating to our leaders (which essentially turn out to be their puppets) which way they should steer policy. We virtually have no say.

      Scary times. Anyway, I’ve rambled on enough. I hope I have made some sense.

      • backwardsevolution August 7, 2016 at 10:25 pm #

        I would just add that if this globalization continues on in the direction it is going, we will eventually see a loss of national sovereignty, the end of cultures, accents, traditions, love of country, and we’ll all become global citizens. I suppose some form of government will continue, just to keep us in line, but I don’t really picture a benevolent government.

        Of course, this will only go on for so much longer as we live on a finite planet and can’t continue on like this indefinitely. I read that the average piece of fruit travels 1,500 miles to its destination. This is crazy, and using up valuable resources in order to make some multinational rich.

        They are destroying this planet as fast as they can. It’s as if they can’t help themselves, each one outdoing the other, a higher share price being the ultimate goal. We’re all involved in their little game and we have no say. I only hope that something stops them before it is too late and while we still have some sense of “country” left.

        Their methods of regime change:

        “These newer means of worldwide dispossession include “soft-power” instruments such as color-coded revolutions, “democratic” coup d’états, manufactured civil wars, orchestrated and/or money-driven elections (peddled as manifestations of democracy), economic sanctions, and the like. Perhaps more importantly, they also include powerful financial institutions and think tanks such as the World Trade Organization (WTO), the International Monetary Fund (IMF), central banks, and credit rating agencies like Moody’s, Standard & Poor’s and Fitch Group.”

        They are all joined together:

        “Representatives of transnational capital and their proxies in capitalist governments routinely meet to synchronize their cross-border business and financial policies—a major focus of which in recent years has been to implement global austerity measures and entrench neoliberal policies worldwide. These meetings include the World Economic Forum in Davos, Switzerland, the World Bank and the IMF annual meetings, the Periodic G20 meetings, the Aspen Institutes Ideas Festival, The Bilderberg Group annual geopolitics forum, and the Herb Allen’s Sun Valley gathering of media moguls—to name only a handful of the many such international policy gatherings.”


        This is a pretty tight grip.

      • Jill August 11, 2016 at 10:40 pm #

        “Meanwhile, they turn around and dump steel into our markets, and we end up losing jobs.”

        We are being screwed by our own local governments: Boston with 1 billion+ contract for transit cars. California with 100s of millions of dollars for Chinese steel for bay bridge and NY with 300 million worth of steel for refurbishing the Verrazano Bridge.

    • Old Smeg August 9, 2016 at 7:00 pm #

      >> Britain today is a nation of shopkeepers

      (Yeah – that’s because the EU took away the second part of the saying – ‘and Fishermen’.)

      It’s worse than that; there’s something destructive within the British psyche.
      I would dearly love to have someone explain it to me.

      For decades, the British have yeaned, longed for, desperately needed, to embrace ANYTHING that comes from beyond our shores. ANYTHING from Green Beans from Kenya to Burgers from the US to Volkswagens from DE to Jump-Jet aircraft (invented here) from america to strips of stitched, fashioned cloth from France to ships for our navy from Korea. We even had our new QE ship built in Germany. Flood defence steelwork for HULL – just down the road from SCUNTHORPE, a Steel Town – made in HOLLAND. Time and again we invented and pioneered technologies that we subsequently buy from foreigners – Hinkley Point being another – atomic energy – that we pioneered.
      Even as we watch Sovereign Wealth Funds being built elsewhere with our money, we queue to buy foreign-made stuff.

      Somebody PLEASE tell me what this psychological malfunction is called . . .


      • Roger Lewis August 9, 2016 at 9:11 pm #

        Neo Liberalism, Classical Liberalism, FreeMarket Mercantilism.

        Its a long story but its about maximising profit on Capital for the Capitalists who David has branded The Disloyal elsewhere on this blog.

        • Old Smeg August 10, 2016 at 11:00 pm #

          >> Neo Liberalism, Classical Liberalism, FreeMarket Mercantilism.

          You’re wasting your time with this stuff, apart from not answering my question. That Grocer’s daughter / chemist, the Mad Cow, had no truck with such fodder. She was just a dumb animal. paddling to keep afloat and lashing out in all directions with spite and malice to shore up her image and keep her stall full of hay.

          Neoliberalism, Capitalism, Markets – why do you think we’re HERE ?
          Because we understand that these have completely f***** the people who power the system from the bottom, who stoke the furnaces. They now pretend that they can do without us, and just keep the illusion churning while they cream off their yields at the top layers. That’s why we don’t appear to have a voice – we’re apparently unnecessary in the cycle.
          YES, I understand the wordy prose you linked, but it’s just so much rhetorical junk, unfocussed, an exercise in self-agrandisement. C.S. Lewis could do better and it would be interesting.
          Some things are right and some things are wrong. The overall philosophy you link to, that which we seek to attack, is wrong simply because SOMEWHERE on the planet there will be a person – usually off-white – who will do it for less. This is an attack upon the very foundations of what we have come to know as cohesive society. If the process is allowed to run unchecked, we will VERY SOON have no cohesive societies left.
          We’re simple people – by defintion – being raped by a slice of the human race who choose to train in the black art of deception and try to convince us they’re the best hope for humanity rather than a parasite, bleeding the host to death. David didn’t take on Goliath on equal terms because they were NOT equal. WE proles cannot take on Harvard-trained economists because we’re NOT equal. We need to protect ourselves via the mechanisms of law, not those of the Free Market. The FM is only useful, of interest even, to those to whom it provides significant benefit – and IT ISN’T ME. My Green Beans – all the way from Kenya – don’t come into me at less money; the saving, and therefore additional profit, is made by the importer. Prices float to the highest level that can be supported, not the other ‘competition’ based way around. Free Market forces work to sustain profits, not the availability of products.

          • backwardsevolution August 11, 2016 at 9:17 pm #

            Old Smeg – I agree with what you said is the end result, that the peasants are no longer needed and are almost completely out of the loop, except as consumers. Our role as consumers is our ONLY, aside from riots and revolution, ace in the hole. Of course, it’s kind of hard to stop eating, isn’t it?

            I suppose you could say we have some power in voting, but voting machines can be rigged (as in the U.S. where some were found to have voted multiple times). We peasants can’t even get truthful information (as major media is owned by the elite), which results in a paralyzed and ill-informed electorate (i.e. being fooled by the Weapons of Mass Destruction story).

            The central banks keep lowering interest rates to keep the ball in the air. As the elite get to borrow for next to nothing, there is a lot of money sloshing around the world, mega leverage. Mergers and acquisitions have gone crazy, resulting in less and less competition and higher prices. Helping my daughter with a homework assignment, we took a trip to the supermarket. Taking our Internet research with us, we wandered down the potato chip and snack aisle. One after another of the products were owned by PepsiCo, so it didn’t really matter much what product you bought, profits were all going to the same company.

            Bottled water is controlled by three main companies: Coca-Cola, PepsiCo and Nestle. “The current Chairman and former CEO of Nestlé, the largest producer of food products in the world, believes that the answer to global water issues is privatization. He said, ‘Access to water is not a public right.’”

            We in the Western world used to be needed by these corporations because we, unlike the Third World, had disposable income. But the globalists are trying desperately to bring up the wages in the Third World (while bringing our’s down) in order to “manufacture” more consumers. Once the rest of the world starts consuming like us, we will have lost our last bargaining chip against the elite.

            As far as there being a free market, I don’t think we’ve had a free market for a long time now, if we ever did. There used to be good anti-monopoly laws in place, but over the years, as the elite have accrued more and more money, which they use to pay off the politicians, these laws have not been enforced. Corporations are now considered as “people” in the U.S. (Citizens United case), and so the elite now have the courts too.

            They deregulated the banks, fine, and the banks went crazy and handed out loans to practically anyone that breathed, but then they got bailed out. Now, had they taken the risk and not been bailed out, that would have been a free market: if you want to play fast and loose, you take a risk of going bankrupt. Which they did, but then were bailed out. They shouldn’t have been.

            There is currently no risk for the elite. They have a central bank backstop, and they know this. The world is their oyster to pry open and plunder.

            Years ago, when the big major banks were privately owned, mortgages were held on their own books, which made certain they were very careful who they lent to (as the risk was their’s). Now they just package these mortgages up and sell them off to unsuspecting investors, knowing full well that they are full of garbage, yet telling the investors they are solid. They should be made to hold the risk themselves. You want to play, then you hold the risk. What they committed was fraud, and they knew it, but they got bailed out. This is not a free market.

            All markets at present are nothing but pure engineering, steering the herd this way and that (Syrian refugees) to suit the elite. They are manufactured, with huge amounts of help from the government (in fact, without the government they would not be successful in their schemes) to benefit them and them alone. If we benefit at all, it is purely by accident.

            We must remove the money from politicians, get it out of government, or this will continue to get worse. Voting is one way, but there’s no way at present to get good, accurate information to the people. Uprisings are quashed, and the government (at the behest of the elite) just keep throwing a few bones at the peasants every now and then to quell their anger. We lap it up and think our governments finally heard us, and our behavior returns to a flat line.

            It’s one big mafia, oligarchy. As the public don’t have the information I stated above and they are not starving, nothing much will change by way of voting. The only way I see for us to hit them back is to stop consuming, only buying what we absolutely need, and bring the system down.

            People are going to finally wake up one day, but like frogs in a slowly boiling pot, once things become critical, it’s too late to try to jump out. The West is slowly being strangled. The elite will end up owning everything (will tax us out of what we have) and we will end up buying from one of a very few company stores.

            So I don’t see “free” anywhere. I see governments and corporations in league, both sides getting filthy rich in the process. We had better wake up.

  54. BobRocket August 8, 2016 at 7:24 pm #

    Re: comment by Roger Lewis on July 12th

    Robin Smiths website http://www.meltfund.com now returns a 404 error (page not found) but it is still accessible from the wayback machine at


    June 23rd 2015 is the last time it was captured.

  55. backwardsevolution August 11, 2016 at 9:41 pm #

    Look at Obama. Word is he’s going to pass the secretive Trans Pacific Partnership trade deal AFTER the election is over (in a lame duck session). He doesn’t want to take the chance that this deal will not be passed. Even if Trump wins (ha!), Obama can still push this through. This trade deal will see millions more jobs lost. But the elite want it and, as I said above, the government is in league with the elite multinational corporations.

    War is money (war on poverty, war on drugs, war on terrorism, war on other countries). I mean, just think of the money rolling in for the American arms dealers and weapons manufacturers. If Trump gets in, we might have a chance of escaping war. If Hillary Clinton gets in, bet on war. A successful coup was orchestrated by her in Ukraine, but, damn, they didn’t quite get the whole country. That’ll be on her agenda. The Libya coup was pulled off with the murder of Gaddafi. Syria was unsuccessful, so I see the U.S. escalating things there. Hillary has said she wants Assad gone. An unsuccessful coup was tried in Turkey, but they couldn’t get their man. Damn, they’ll have to get him another way. Erdogan is now seeking protection – I mean talking to Putin. That guy had better watch what he eats for the rest of his life, as well as learn to do his own maintenance on his government airplane!

    Anyone involved in the military establishment gets filthy rich. They don’t pay for war; they pass on the cost to the taxpayers. Bases are being set up in Poland, Romania, Latvia. They are trying to surround Russia. What would Churchill do if he were Putin? Take a shot? That’s what I worry about.

  56. Jill August 11, 2016 at 10:22 pm #

    A Raiffeisen bank in southern Germany just introduced a negative deposit rate for retail clients with >€100k.

    Does any one see this as a problem. Wasn’t this outcome part of the overall plan?

    • backwardsevolution August 13, 2016 at 12:04 am #

      “There is nothing natural about a purely fiat currency that can be inflated at will by a central bank. There will undoubtedly be a number of “unnatural” elements of that system that become visible over time, and negative interest rates may be one of them.

      What we have now is just the latest modern innovation in finance, which not only enabled the inflation of a credit bubble over the past 40 years, but has also created the perceived need for negative interest rates to just keep the whole thing from collapsing. Incredible.”

      AND: “In absence of central bank or government manipulation of fiat monetary systems, it is impossible for interest rates or time preferences to be negative.”


    • backwardsevolution August 13, 2016 at 12:28 am #

      “Europe’s banking system is toast. Wholesale interest rates on the continent are already negative. Negative interest rates essentially penalize any bank that tries to be responsible and hold extra reserves. What an unbelievably stupid policy. Rather than encourage banks to be conservative with their customers’ deposits, the ECB is practically forcing them to make as many loans as possible.

      So it’s not exactly much of a shocker to find out that, in their haste to loan out almost 100% of their customers’ money, many of the loans went belly-up. EU data showed that by the end of September 2015, 17% of Italian loans were non-performing. The non-performing loan rate is a shocking 43.5% in Greece, and 50% in Cyprus. (That data is nearly a year old, so the numbers are worse now.)”


  57. Patrica August 12, 2016 at 12:10 am #

    Europe what in the hell are you doing. Looking at you from the great distance of New Zealand it seems to me that you are all sleepwalking to another major war. This blind following of America, the allowing it, through NATO, to stir up trouble along all your boarders is just asking for another World War. America’s raison d’être is to create war but only in other people’s lands. Although it is willing to sacrifice its own sons for the benefit of the Halliburtons of this world while telling you and their sons that it is to bring love, light and democracy. And you believe them!! We judge people not by their words but by their actions. Why don’t we do the same with Countries? What on earth are your journalists, your reporters and your politicians doing. America is not a democracy. It is an oligarchy and is willing to do anything to increase the bottom lines of those Companies that control it. Protect your lands and your people. You cannot go through any more Armageddons the like of which you have endured twice in the last hundred years. But this blind obedience to America will certainly ensure you do.

    • John G September 5, 2016 at 9:45 am #

      New Zealanders living in glass houses etc, Patricia. Are we not one of the 5 eyes?

  58. Salford Lad August 14, 2016 at 11:33 am #

    The Westrn Mainstream Media is almost completely suborned and regurgitates the regimes propaganda and lies.
    It is difficult for a journaist to tell the truth when his job, paycheck and mortgage is dependent on telling lies. See the book by German journalist Ulf Ulkotte ,who states that he received a regular payment from the CIA to publish lies. He reckons almost 90% of Western journalista are on the CIA payroll.

    @ backwards revolution,
    Banks do not lend out depositors money. Banks create money when they make a loan ,using the + and – bookkeeping method.
    The borrower is credited with the loan amount and the bank puts an equal negative amount on its books. The aggregate of the two amounts equals zero.
    The interest paid by the borrower is the banks profit on money created from thin air.
    The borrower has himself helped to create this money ,which contributes to inflation. A double whammy of robbing himself.

    • Old Smeg August 14, 2016 at 11:44 pm #

      This is an interesting conundrum and it’s often brandished during these debates.

      But …

      – having got my ‘loan’ from the bank, I can actually go out and buy 10.000 lollypops with it. I actually possess the lollypops and I can eat them.

      The vendor takes my money and puts it in … the bank – where it goes full circle. All the money in circulation is actually at the bank. We just get to look at it occasionally.

      When the bank gets arsey about my debt, they can get it back. To achieve this I have to labour in the fields (making wealth, as it happens, for another) – which is a physical attribute, or quantity. I have traded my labour for lollipops. This is a barter system of sorts. In order to eat I have to labour in the fields. What’s wrong with that ?

      What’s wrong is, I’m too dumb to work first and eat later. I want that Ipod BEFORE I earned the money to pay for it, and the bank leverages that in debt interest
      And now the whole world runs on the basis that I will keep buying Ipods ahead of due time, necessitating my continued labouring in the fields.

      It’s not a sound mechanism, unfortunately, but the Empire will likely fall if I don’t replace my Levis every 18 months . . .


  59. backwardsevolution August 16, 2016 at 5:54 pm #

    Old Smeg, Salford, Stevie, or anyone else interested in a good investigative piece by Robert Parry, winner of many medals for investigative journalism”, re MH17, the plane shot down over Ukraine.

    Another dastardly article highlighting the lies being told and the evidence being buried.

    “In other words, the Times, the Post and the rest of the mainstream U.S. media want the Russians to be guilty, so they exclude from their articles evidence that suggests that some element of the Ukrainian military might have fired the fateful missile. Such “group think” is, of course, the same journalistic malfeasance that led to the false reporting about Iraq’s WMD. Doubts, even expressed by experts, were systematically filtered out then and the same now.”

    Three pages long, well worth the read, from July 20, 2016.


    He wrote another article re MH17 on July 17, 2016:


  60. backwardsevolution August 16, 2016 at 6:01 pm #

    Another really good article by Paul Craig Roberts entitled, “Rethinking the Cold War”:

    “What does this tell us about the intelligence of the “Unipower,” “the world’s only superpower,” the” indispensible people,” the “exceptional nation”? It tells us that they are as dumb as shit. Creatures of The Matrix created by their own propagandists, Americans see imaginary threats, not real ones.

    What the Russians and Chinese see are a people too brainwashed and ignorant to be of any support for peace. They see war coming and are preparing for it.”


  61. mark Bloomfield August 17, 2016 at 11:03 pm #

    Back to more mundane matters…….

  62. Roger Lewis August 18, 2016 at 12:31 pm #

    Hear David reading from the Debt Generation on the Leadership Site Blog Here.

  63. Salford Lad August 24, 2016 at 12:00 pm #

    For those eligible as Members , the Vote for the Labour Leadership is now online in your mailbox, , if you wish to exercise your democratic right per the Labour Party.

  64. Wirplit August 28, 2016 at 2:15 am #

    Very glad to see you active here again Davit. Just caught up. Things must be hotting up again…
    And very pleased that you as one who wanted Remain nonetheless take issue with those who regard the Leave voters as merely stupid. The response of the Remain camp was often foully condescending and gave no credence to those of us who years ago read “The Rotten Heart of Europe” and started to worry about what the real agendas were in the EU and who had thought about it a very long time.
    Some of my friends almost became almost insulting when I explained why I voted to Leave. They too wanted to believe all the logic and sense was on their side and the rest were just the ignorant. I had no time for the Leave campaign itself it seemed a vast distraction from the true issues . And i could understand the pro Europe feelings many had… as my daughter was born in Spain and many of my oldest friends are from Europe… ( not all by any means pro EU)… but after what had been done to Greece it was the last straw.
    Globalization is not for the benefit of the many and As both Steve Keen and John Pilger http://truepublica.org.uk/eu/john-pilger-british-said-no-europe/ recognised this vote was not for Europe but for the EU. And whether like Vanis Varoufakis or Slavoj Zizek one reluctantly accepted failure of the EU and its neo liberal agenda and pinned ones hopes on reform… or despaired and decided that without a real shock like Brexit such reform was pie in the sky like me ….both sides had real points.
    But someone like the ridiculous Laurie Penny you write about just illustrates the real unpleasant reality of a modern version of the class war… The technocratic elite versus the masses. ( an issue that has bedevilled the EU project from the start). The ones who know best ( and benefit most) versus the ones who are merely led.
    I used to wonder what Orwell would have made of it… and now in a way… and thanks to you David I kind of have an inkling.

  65. BobRocket August 30, 2016 at 12:02 am #

    I have refrained thus far from commenting on Brexit in order to allow the dust to settle.

    The polls said majority In, I voted Out.

    had the polls said majority Out, I would have voted In.

    The vote itself was rigged.

  66. John G September 5, 2016 at 9:44 am #

    I just can’t see why anyone would want to stay in the EU. The arguments for staying, it seems to me are all based on illusions rather than the cold hard reality of what the EU is, does and will be and will do.

    It is a corporatist neoliberal behemoth.

    Leaving the EU will not ensure by any means that the UK will reject neoliberalism. But it is most surely a prerequisite to being able to do so.

    The Greens really need to rethink their economics.

  67. Ken November 30, 2016 at 8:33 pm #

    “…prejudice, propaganda, naked xenophobia and callous fear-mongering have won out over the common sense…”

    Hmmm – I voted to leave for reasons of sovereignty. I had no idea that my vote was motivated by prejudice, propaganda, naked xenophobia and callous fear-mongering. I guess I should be grateful we have people like Penny who can help me see the error of my ways. However, having read her thoughts, I am not inclined to give the benefit of the doubt to her.

  68. Roger Lewis February 19, 2017 at 4:45 pm #

    https://letthemconfectsweeterlies.blogspot.se/2017/02/meet-fuggers-brexit-euro-and-clueless.html My Latest On Brexit and The EU. I have spent a lot of time on this and it could use a few more weeks TLC.
    It’s the basis of the final part on My Novel Conquest of Dough, I can´t help but marvel at the Similarities of Khrushchev’s denunciation of Stalin in the 20th Congress and aspects of the Balkanisation of Europe related to Stalin’s falling out with Tito.


  1. Grounds for hope in challenging times | Common Cause - July 18, 2016

    […] David Malone wrote in his recent appeal for ‘Remainers’ to express the empathy and humility to which they are so committed rhetorically: “The battle of our time, will require a courage and […]

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